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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mal Malenkirk" data-source="post: 70723" data-attributes="member: 834">Then you shouldn't play an ogre OR a fighter and you certainly shouldn't play an OGRE FIGHTER! I am very tired of this argument, why won't it die?Ghorgor isn't weak out of combat because of his high ECL but because of his race and class.Play a Dryad or a Pixie if you want lots of skills and useful spell like abilities in exchange for your ECL.  A Dryad can easily gain as much skill points as a standard 3rd level rogue in exchange for her ECL.  And she casts charm person as a spell like abilities.Killing machines aren't your idea of fun?  Then don't play one.  I don't think we should balance ECL based on your idea of fun! As I mentionned earlier in this thread, Mal Malenkirk, my namesake, is a killing machine.  And he's the most fun PC I've ever played because of his ineptitude out of combat that provoked endless opportunities for comedy and mayhem.For me, Ghorgor is fun to play for the same reasons.  You don't like it, I can respect that.  But don't imagine that your taste (or mine) in roleplaying has any importance as far as game balance issues are concerned.  The question that needs an answer is:"Is it too strong/weak".  It's not: "Would I like to play this character."One of my players has already expressed his interest to play Ghorgor should his PC die so that tells me that an Ogre at ECL 8 is still an attractive concept for some.  It's not a popularity contest; not everyone has to like it.What are you talking about?  Nothing very useful is expected out of the human fighter out of combat, why would you expect the ogre to do better?It's an ogre fighter, for crying out loud!    Don't wait till then.  Assuming indentical stats and equivalent ressources;I can tell you right now what happens when a 5th level ogre fighter with ECL 4 is compared to a 9th level fighter ECL 0.-They both have 9 HD but the ogre has +4 to CONThe ogre has more HP.-The Ogre has +8 BAB and -1 size while the ECL 0 race has +9, but the Ogre has +10 STR.The ogre will have a better attack bonus.  He'll also use bigger weapons and do much more damage in melee.-The ogre has -2 dex and -1 size which hurts his AC by 2 points when compared to ECL 0... But he has a +5 natural armor!The ogre will have a better AC.-The ogre moves at 30 when wearing medium or heavier armor.The ogre will move fasterOh, and he has a longer reach and a +4 size modifier for several special maneuver.Results: The ogre dominates.</blockquote>

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