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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Axiomatic Unicorn" data-source="post: 72315" data-attributes="member: 1974">Marshall,I think you have really misrepresented the argurments your are trying to challenge.For example, you say that the ease of sunder is dependent of the weapons selected therefore it is a non-issue.  This dodges the point that for every weapon, the ogre's version will be harder to sunder.  A totally non-arbitrary advantage for the ogreSame for disarm, the ogres equivalent weapons always larger, so the advantage is always there.?????First, your comment that it will never change regardless of the ECL is odd.  None of the ogre's inherent advantages or disdvantages will change no matter what the ECL is.  What is your point?  And you are saying that a +7 bonus is only tangentially relevant????  I would say that is dead center important.On trip attacks:  Before you were claiming that issues that required specific weapon selection were not valid for establishing an advantage, now you are using that line of reasoning.  But to address your point, yes a fighter could spend feats to achieve the same or better results.  No one has claimed that a human fighter can't be better than the ogre fighter.  As a matter of fact, it is my contention that at the correct ECL a human fighter SHOULD be better at straight combat than the ogre.   Just because a fighter COULD do it with feats does not mean the ogre automatically having this ability is not an advantage that should be accounted for.  It is still an ability inherent to the ogre and should be part of the ECL.On hit points, you don't dispute it, you simply blow it off.  OK.On using a Huge halberd.  You say he would be screwing himself.Huh???Having the option of a 15 foot reach is flat out a good thing.  A human with a reach weapon usually can not attack with 5 feet.  That is not screwing him, that is making a trade off.  The ogre can use weapons to attack 5 and 10 feet away and has the tactical option of using weapons that can attack 15 feet away.  That is nothing but a pure advantage.Yes he is low in INT and CHR.  So what?  Are you in the camp that thinks half-orcs "got the shaft"?  The primary concept for an ogre fighter is going to feel very little loss.  Some loss, sure.  A serious drawback to the concept?  No, a dumb low charisma thumper IS the concept.If he has to solve a riddle to save a party, the party is in deep trouble.  If the party cleric has to quietly sneak past a demon and a beholder, the party is in deep trouble.If the party wizard has to go toe-to-toe with the evil weapon master without using spells, the party is in deep trouble.Edit:  I'm out of town for a few days, may or may not be able to respond.</blockquote>

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