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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Jasperak" data-source="post: 75626" data-attributes="member: 2487">I have been following this discussion for quite sometime now, and the reason why I am posting now is that I started wondering, what if we broke down the elements of what prompted WOTC (or whomever) to give the Ogre ECL+8 or any other races for that matter their respective ECLs.I was thinking, how many levels is being large worth, or even a bonus +10 to strength.  We know they started with HD and then added to based upon abilities but what exactly is 4 0-level spells worth class level wise.Instead of worrying about one ogre fares in one campaign, break down mathematically what a +10 strength is, or reach, or extra 10' movement, or flying.Along those lines, some food for thought:+10 strength ~ +10 fighter class levels (for BAB only)flying ~ 3rd-level arcane spell (6th? level caster)4 0-level arcane spells ~ 1st-level arcane spell casterTroll regeneration ~ ring of regeneration? (90,000)reach ~ spring attack? (cannot remember which feat it would be)4d8, 8 skill points, 1 feat ~ crap (I think I would start with CR and add to that instead of HD)Cannot think of any more (I am still at work), but I think it might be a start.  The whole reason would be that we could start comparing creatures to each other.  While I would think Ogre would be okay at ECL+5, I think that ECL+6 would be satisfactory, although no frickin Troll is going to be ECL+11? in my world.Coming up with a chart similar to the class creation engine that is floating around would go a long way towards finding a more playable answer.  I have got a feeling that this ECL thing will never go away but maybe we could find some semblance of balance.  And who knows, we may find that all of these ECLs in the article were picked with darts <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />BTW, based on a previous post, I will not be comparing the ogre fighter to a human fighter any more, but the ogre to a half-orc.  Seems like we may get a slightly better analysis.</blockquote>

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