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ECL of Monsters Part III: Are Ogres ECL 8? The Adventures of Ghorgor.
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<blockquote data-quote="Jasperak" data-source="post: 75959" data-attributes="member: 2487"><p>I have no problem with playtesting; quite the contrary playtesting is a must. Unfortuntely, it has been several days now and all we have is one ogre in one campaign. In a hypothetical situation, if all of this could be boiled down to simple equations, one would rather have a million tests as opposed to a handful.</p><p></p><p>Look at it from the game design point of view. How long do you think these guys have been testing the material that will appear in Tooth & Claw? A year? Maybe two? And how many of these creatures do you think they play tested? Twenty? A hundred?</p><p></p><p>If there was a baseline to start with, then it would be much easier to test when all you have to do is add the human variable into the equation. Now I will be the first one to say an equation could not give us what we are looking for, but it will get us closer. If I am going to pay these guys for something, I do not want to question their design choices; I want to feel confortable with their decisions, but so far, I have seen everything that runs the gammit from vastly underpowered to pure munchkin. These boards are fillled with it. Yuk.</p><p></p><p>I would rather wait a year to insure that we get the most balanced system that we can (of course it can't be perfect; part of the fun is finding the best combinations.)</p><p></p><p>The problem with not having a standard way of looking at the system is that everyone sees differently, meaning for example the ogre's ECL. Some are happy with it at eight, some are happy with it at five. Those three levels can mean a great deal.</p><p></p><p>Taking Ghorgor for example, just wait until his hit point differential comes up smack in the face of a CR10 dragon's breath weapon. Without looking at his stats, I would still think that those 16 hit points + con bonus for the extra three levels would even the playing field. He may even survive the initial onslaught to use the strengths he excels in. Do not get me wrong, I am only using a three level difference as an example.</p><p></p><p>That is why it is so important to get these things right, the first time, without web errata. If a systematic way can be done to show how the different classes stack up against each other, so to can one show how different monster races compare. If we go by instinct, we will not be able to have a balanced system for very long, any body here 2e calling? I do not want another Sword & Fist, or hospitaller PrC.</p><p></p><p>Wizards HAS to lead by example. They need to demonstrate that they have a complete grasp of their rules. If their escape is, just add three to the ECL, because they cannot nor will not find the true balance, then to heck with them. </p><p></p><p>I want balance. I want to trust the system. A system that with a few hiccups is IMHO the best. I want it to stay that way. If I have to tweek a little here or there fine, but I will never have a troll fig1 with a party of 14th level characters. (Troll ECL is 13 right?) I would prefer charts to go on, based upon campaign strength, and I would rather they let me choose what I want the ECL to be rather than give me a number I cannot trust.</p><p></p><p>BTW, a game of numbers that does not have a system is broken. Simple equation, heck no, but there should be a way. Don't pull a T$R on me. If they do not have a plan, the system will break.</p><p></p><p>Sorry{/rant}</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Jasperak, post: 75959, member: 2487"] I have no problem with playtesting; quite the contrary playtesting is a must. Unfortuntely, it has been several days now and all we have is one ogre in one campaign. In a hypothetical situation, if all of this could be boiled down to simple equations, one would rather have a million tests as opposed to a handful. Look at it from the game design point of view. How long do you think these guys have been testing the material that will appear in Tooth & Claw? A year? Maybe two? And how many of these creatures do you think they play tested? Twenty? A hundred? If there was a baseline to start with, then it would be much easier to test when all you have to do is add the human variable into the equation. Now I will be the first one to say an equation could not give us what we are looking for, but it will get us closer. If I am going to pay these guys for something, I do not want to question their design choices; I want to feel confortable with their decisions, but so far, I have seen everything that runs the gammit from vastly underpowered to pure munchkin. These boards are fillled with it. Yuk. I would rather wait a year to insure that we get the most balanced system that we can (of course it can't be perfect; part of the fun is finding the best combinations.) The problem with not having a standard way of looking at the system is that everyone sees differently, meaning for example the ogre's ECL. Some are happy with it at eight, some are happy with it at five. Those three levels can mean a great deal. Taking Ghorgor for example, just wait until his hit point differential comes up smack in the face of a CR10 dragon's breath weapon. Without looking at his stats, I would still think that those 16 hit points + con bonus for the extra three levels would even the playing field. He may even survive the initial onslaught to use the strengths he excels in. Do not get me wrong, I am only using a three level difference as an example. That is why it is so important to get these things right, the first time, without web errata. If a systematic way can be done to show how the different classes stack up against each other, so to can one show how different monster races compare. If we go by instinct, we will not be able to have a balanced system for very long, any body here 2e calling? I do not want another Sword & Fist, or hospitaller PrC. Wizards HAS to lead by example. They need to demonstrate that they have a complete grasp of their rules. If their escape is, just add three to the ECL, because they cannot nor will not find the true balance, then to heck with them. I want balance. I want to trust the system. A system that with a few hiccups is IMHO the best. I want it to stay that way. If I have to tweek a little here or there fine, but I will never have a troll fig1 with a party of 14th level characters. (Troll ECL is 13 right?) I would prefer charts to go on, based upon campaign strength, and I would rather they let me choose what I want the ECL to be rather than give me a number I cannot trust. BTW, a game of numbers that does not have a system is broken. Simple equation, heck no, but there should be a way. Don't pull a T$R on me. If they do not have a plan, the system will break. Sorry{/rant} [/QUOTE]
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