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ECL of Monsters Part III: Are Ogres ECL 8? The Adventures of Ghorgor.
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<blockquote data-quote="Jasperak" data-source="post: 76081" data-attributes="member: 2487"><p>Axiomatic,</p><p></p><p>That is my whole point, they are going to try and force something into a system that from level 1 to level 20 cannot keep it balanced. Trying to plug new rules into a system that will work at one level (high) but not at another (low-mid) is poor planning on their part. </p><p></p><p>I can imagine a group of designers sitting around a table saying,</p><p>"Yeah lets give the Ogre an ECL+5"</p><p>"But what about when all the characters are 10th level?"</p><p>"Oh, I see that, well then lets make it ECL+8"</p><p>"But what about when they are all 20th level and the ogre fighter now is only behind by 8 levels in feats? He's got 12 fighter levels worth of feats!"</p><p>"Well then lets make it's ECL+14. That should make the ogre just a little less powerful."</p><p></p><p>See my point, because of the inherent differences in the races, as the monsters gain more and more levels their power will increase, for lack of a better term, exponentially compared to the standard races linearly(sp?).</p><p></p><p>I know this does not denfend what I said earlier, but I am not trying to. We are now discussing just another facet to this situation.</p><p></p><p>I forgot to reply to your much earlier comment... You are 100% correct when you said just because one ability is worth A and another ability is worth B, that when you add both abilities their worth will be greater than A+B. Of that there is no doubt. </p><p></p><p>With all of this discussion, I am beginning to wonder if it would be advisable to try and come up with rules like they are. Now for 1HD creatures with smaller powers like Aasimar, Tieflings, or Drow, this might be useful. But for Ogres, Trolls, etc... When an Ogre with an ECL+8 in a party of 10th level characters is weak, I think the same Ogre in a party of 20th level characters will be more powerful. Maybe every race should get their own xp chart to scale their power with the standard races.</p><p></p><p>The whole idea is balance. Why should we waste our time discussing the ECLs of Ogres the numbers we come up with for one level do not hold up at another.</p><p></p><p>They made a game that unlike its predecessor doesn't appear broken at higher levels, but yet now they are adding something that could potentially do that. Cannot wait for epic levels to come out... Ah damn, my 30th epic level character died, oh well I guess I will make an Ogre with 22 levels. Just imagine that character<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite9" alt=":eek:" title="Eek! :eek:" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":eek:" /> Maybe the Epic stuff will narrow the power gap by slowing it, but I would think that to keep characters going that long and longer, well I would rather not speculate.</p><p></p><p>BTW I love your troll idea... they normally guard bridges right <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p>Bad DM, Bad DM. /me puts on thinking cap.<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite8" alt=":D" title="Big grin :D" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":D" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Jasperak, post: 76081, member: 2487"] Axiomatic, That is my whole point, they are going to try and force something into a system that from level 1 to level 20 cannot keep it balanced. Trying to plug new rules into a system that will work at one level (high) but not at another (low-mid) is poor planning on their part. I can imagine a group of designers sitting around a table saying, "Yeah lets give the Ogre an ECL+5" "But what about when all the characters are 10th level?" "Oh, I see that, well then lets make it ECL+8" "But what about when they are all 20th level and the ogre fighter now is only behind by 8 levels in feats? He's got 12 fighter levels worth of feats!" "Well then lets make it's ECL+14. That should make the ogre just a little less powerful." See my point, because of the inherent differences in the races, as the monsters gain more and more levels their power will increase, for lack of a better term, exponentially compared to the standard races linearly(sp?). I know this does not denfend what I said earlier, but I am not trying to. We are now discussing just another facet to this situation. I forgot to reply to your much earlier comment... You are 100% correct when you said just because one ability is worth A and another ability is worth B, that when you add both abilities their worth will be greater than A+B. Of that there is no doubt. With all of this discussion, I am beginning to wonder if it would be advisable to try and come up with rules like they are. Now for 1HD creatures with smaller powers like Aasimar, Tieflings, or Drow, this might be useful. But for Ogres, Trolls, etc... When an Ogre with an ECL+8 in a party of 10th level characters is weak, I think the same Ogre in a party of 20th level characters will be more powerful. Maybe every race should get their own xp chart to scale their power with the standard races. The whole idea is balance. Why should we waste our time discussing the ECLs of Ogres the numbers we come up with for one level do not hold up at another. They made a game that unlike its predecessor doesn't appear broken at higher levels, but yet now they are adding something that could potentially do that. Cannot wait for epic levels to come out... Ah damn, my 30th epic level character died, oh well I guess I will make an Ogre with 22 levels. Just imagine that character:eek: Maybe the Epic stuff will narrow the power gap by slowing it, but I would think that to keep characters going that long and longer, well I would rather not speculate. BTW I love your troll idea... they normally guard bridges right ;) Bad DM, Bad DM. /me puts on thinking cap.:D [/QUOTE]
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