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*Dungeons & Dragons
ECL of Monsters Part III: Are Ogres ECL 8? The Adventures of Ghorgor.
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<blockquote data-quote="Aloïsius" data-source="post: 76744" data-attributes="member: 1191"><p>A few thing I have to say :</p><p></p><p>* It's not easiest to lower an ECL if it's too high than to increase it during play if it was too low : if it was too low and you raise it, your PC will have to wait a few more session. If it was too high, his character is simply dead. Even if you resurect him, he will loose another level. (I used to play character with ECL : a half-celestial halfling bard and a elven Shade sorcerer. They have been killed, and, being spellcaster with ECL, they were useless for the party)</p><p></p><p>*In Mal Campaign, you compare an optimized ogre with an non-optimal fighter.</p><p>Here are two standard character, using 25 point buy (in fact I use the table in the DMG), standard rule.. One is an ogre (ECL +8) fighter 1. The other is a human fighter 9. Remember that stats with modifier lower than -2 use a specific table page 23 of the DMG, giving an higher charisma to the ogre. Equipement is for a 8th level NPC.</p><p></p><p>Ogre Fighter 1: </p><p>Str 25 Dex 11 Con 18 Int 6 Wis 12 Cha 6</p><p>HD : 4d8 + 16 ( 42 hp) +1d 10 +8 (18hp) total : 60 hp</p><p>AC : 26 (+9 full plate+1; +3 large metal shield +1; +5 natural ; -1 size). Touch 9</p><p>Attack : +12 (greatsword +1), or +4 mighty(16) huge composite masterwork longbow</p><p>Damage : 2d6 + 8 greatsword or 2d6 +3 huge longbow </p><p>Feats : Weapon focus greatsword</p><p>Fort : +10 Ref : +1 Will : +2</p><p>Skills points : 4. </p><p></p><p>Human Fighter 9 :</p><p>Str 17 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 11 Cha 8</p><p>HD 9d10 + 18 (28 + 44 = 72 hp)</p><p>AC : 20 (+1 dex, +9 full plate +1 ) Touch 11</p><p>Attacks : +14 +9 spiked chain +1 or +12/+7 mighty (16) composite masterwork longbow</p><p>Damage : 2d4 + 7 spiked chain or 1d8+3 longbow</p><p>Feats: Exotic weapon profeciency spiked chain. Weapon focus spiked chain. Weapon specialisation spiked chain. Dodge. Mobility. Spring Attack. Combat reflexe. Improved disarm. Improved trip. Expertise. </p><p>Fort : +9 Ref +6 Will +4</p><p>Skill points : 36.</p><p></p><p>So what : at first glance :</p><p>HD : advantage to human, in regard of spells like cloudkill, or sleep.</p><p>HP : little advantage to human.</p><p>AC : advantage to ogre, but touch AC is better for human.</p><p>Attacks : advantage to human.</p><p>Damage : advantage to ogre</p><p>Feat : no comment. </p><p>Saves : avantage to human. </p><p>Skills : avantage to human.</p><p>Reach : advantage to ogre, but not so great (spiked chain)</p><p>Grapple : advantage to ogre. Remember escape artist is cross-class for fighter. </p><p>Disarm : advantage to ogre, but not so great (spiked chain)</p><p>Speed : advantage to ogre (I think)</p><p>Miscellaneous : Ogre equipement is far more expensive. He requier a lot more food. He will have a hard time in social encounter (try to find a bed the appropriate size in the Inn...). He will often be shoot on sight. Mount for ogre are very rare, at least (a bulette ?). If wounded and disabled, his comrade won't be able to pick him. He will be able to lift and carry more stuff than his human counterpart. </p><p></p><p>So it looks overall balanced at EL 8 ? I think not. Not at all. Suppose you have a wizard in the party, it could happen, right ? He will be level 9, right ? Thus he will know at least 4 4th level spells, right ? What if one of this spell is Polymorph Other ? Simple. Here will be the new stats of our two EL9 fighter.</p><p></p><p>Ogre ( same as above, I haven't found any form in the MM, with 9 HD or less, that gave him a new advantage. If there is one, please post. Being polymorphed in a troll will make him lose str.)</p><p></p><p>Human (polymorphed into Troll)</p><p>Str 23 Dex 14 Con 23 Int 10 Wis 11 Cha 8</p><p>HP and HD : same as above.</p><p>AC : 26 (+1 dex, +9 full plate +1 - 1 size +7 nat) Touch 10</p><p>Attacks : +16 +11 huge spiked chain +1 or +11/+6 huge mighty (16) composite masterwork longbow</p><p>Damage : 2d6 + 9 spiked chain or 2d6+3 huge longbow</p><p>Fort : +13 Ref +6 Will +4</p><p></p><p>Just cast dispel magic before entering the town. </p><p></p><p>Now, Human is better everywhere. EL +8 means that you will have level 8 spellcaster in the party, when you are only level 1. A wizard 8 is able to undo all your advantage by giving the same to the party fighter. And don't hope a revanche by being able later to be polymorphed into a Huge giant : they have more than 15 HD...So you will have to wait the polymorph any object spell, which will work for the small human, too.</p><p></p><p></p><p>*Even without the bloody polymorph thing, you have to consider spellcasters : any ECL creature will be badly inspired to become a spellcaster, I have playtested it.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Aloïsius, post: 76744, member: 1191"] A few thing I have to say : * It's not easiest to lower an ECL if it's too high than to increase it during play if it was too low : if it was too low and you raise it, your PC will have to wait a few more session. If it was too high, his character is simply dead. Even if you resurect him, he will loose another level. (I used to play character with ECL : a half-celestial halfling bard and a elven Shade sorcerer. They have been killed, and, being spellcaster with ECL, they were useless for the party) *In Mal Campaign, you compare an optimized ogre with an non-optimal fighter. Here are two standard character, using 25 point buy (in fact I use the table in the DMG), standard rule.. One is an ogre (ECL +8) fighter 1. The other is a human fighter 9. Remember that stats with modifier lower than -2 use a specific table page 23 of the DMG, giving an higher charisma to the ogre. Equipement is for a 8th level NPC. Ogre Fighter 1: Str 25 Dex 11 Con 18 Int 6 Wis 12 Cha 6 HD : 4d8 + 16 ( 42 hp) +1d 10 +8 (18hp) total : 60 hp AC : 26 (+9 full plate+1; +3 large metal shield +1; +5 natural ; -1 size). Touch 9 Attack : +12 (greatsword +1), or +4 mighty(16) huge composite masterwork longbow Damage : 2d6 + 8 greatsword or 2d6 +3 huge longbow Feats : Weapon focus greatsword Fort : +10 Ref : +1 Will : +2 Skills points : 4. Human Fighter 9 : Str 17 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 11 Cha 8 HD 9d10 + 18 (28 + 44 = 72 hp) AC : 20 (+1 dex, +9 full plate +1 ) Touch 11 Attacks : +14 +9 spiked chain +1 or +12/+7 mighty (16) composite masterwork longbow Damage : 2d4 + 7 spiked chain or 1d8+3 longbow Feats: Exotic weapon profeciency spiked chain. Weapon focus spiked chain. Weapon specialisation spiked chain. Dodge. Mobility. Spring Attack. Combat reflexe. Improved disarm. Improved trip. Expertise. Fort : +9 Ref +6 Will +4 Skill points : 36. So what : at first glance : HD : advantage to human, in regard of spells like cloudkill, or sleep. HP : little advantage to human. AC : advantage to ogre, but touch AC is better for human. Attacks : advantage to human. Damage : advantage to ogre Feat : no comment. Saves : avantage to human. Skills : avantage to human. Reach : advantage to ogre, but not so great (spiked chain) Grapple : advantage to ogre. Remember escape artist is cross-class for fighter. Disarm : advantage to ogre, but not so great (spiked chain) Speed : advantage to ogre (I think) Miscellaneous : Ogre equipement is far more expensive. He requier a lot more food. He will have a hard time in social encounter (try to find a bed the appropriate size in the Inn...). He will often be shoot on sight. Mount for ogre are very rare, at least (a bulette ?). If wounded and disabled, his comrade won't be able to pick him. He will be able to lift and carry more stuff than his human counterpart. So it looks overall balanced at EL 8 ? I think not. Not at all. Suppose you have a wizard in the party, it could happen, right ? He will be level 9, right ? Thus he will know at least 4 4th level spells, right ? What if one of this spell is Polymorph Other ? Simple. Here will be the new stats of our two EL9 fighter. Ogre ( same as above, I haven't found any form in the MM, with 9 HD or less, that gave him a new advantage. If there is one, please post. Being polymorphed in a troll will make him lose str.) Human (polymorphed into Troll) Str 23 Dex 14 Con 23 Int 10 Wis 11 Cha 8 HP and HD : same as above. AC : 26 (+1 dex, +9 full plate +1 - 1 size +7 nat) Touch 10 Attacks : +16 +11 huge spiked chain +1 or +11/+6 huge mighty (16) composite masterwork longbow Damage : 2d6 + 9 spiked chain or 2d6+3 huge longbow Fort : +13 Ref +6 Will +4 Just cast dispel magic before entering the town. Now, Human is better everywhere. EL +8 means that you will have level 8 spellcaster in the party, when you are only level 1. A wizard 8 is able to undo all your advantage by giving the same to the party fighter. And don't hope a revanche by being able later to be polymorphed into a Huge giant : they have more than 15 HD...So you will have to wait the polymorph any object spell, which will work for the small human, too. *Even without the bloody polymorph thing, you have to consider spellcasters : any ECL creature will be badly inspired to become a spellcaster, I have playtested it. [/QUOTE]
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