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<blockquote data-quote="Belzamus" data-source="post: 5890154" data-attributes="member: 61612"><p>I did mean the opposite. Oops. </p><p></p><p>And I was actually referring to mostly the second article, I agree that the Fellowship is in the ~2-6 range</p><p></p><p>I suppose we could infer something like a featherfall, I was just assuming, absent any mention of Gandalf using a spell to avoid the impact, he just straight-up tanked it. </p><p></p><p>Anyway, it's described as </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>What I take from this is that this was a prolonged battle, not just a couple spells hurled back and forth, otherwise it wouldn't look like a "storm" to the on-lookers. From that, I conclude that not only are both combatants capable of casting the likes of fireball and chain lightning repeatedly, but that they are capable of surviving multiple such spells. </p><p></p><p>So, are we to conclude that both have high resistance or immunity to such attacks? If so, why are they not pursuing more effective means of attack?</p><p></p><p>Also, is a simple fireball spell capable of flashing ice to steam like that? /isn't so good with physics and DnD.</p><p></p><p>I'll leave whatever "breaking the mountain" means, since that's pretty ambiguous. </p><p></p><p>I also find it kind of... disheartening that a feat of endurance like fighting for 8 days straight while climbing however many miles nearly straight vertically counts for almost nothing simply because DnD has no system for emulating why those things should be special. </p><p></p><p>And about magical Balrogs, quoth Gandalf after the situation in the chamber of Mazarbul,</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So, from this we can glean that the Balrog is at least as skilled in magic as Gandalf. At the very least, he has a Dispel Magic SLA and a caster level sufficient to overcome Gandalf's Hold Portal. </p><p></p><p></p><p>But, that's all discounting something else I feel is rather significant. Both Gandalf and the Balrog are Maiar, lesser Ainur. We see in the Silmarillion that the Valar, the greater Ainur, are continent-busters. So, extrapolating down, a powerful Maiar might be in mountain-buster territory -- and we do see Huan causing widespread destruction simply from his roar.</p><p></p><p>Where I'm going with this is, the Balrog is a Maiar aspected to fire and destruction. I.e., one of the stronger Maiar in terms of combat abilities, so... should he not be higher than 8th level? That seems really low to me, no matter which way you approach it from. </p><p></p><p>For more scaling, Fingolfin was able to contend with Morgoth for... a week straight, was it? Who, even in his weakened form was causing tremendous geographic devastation with his strikes. And yet, his brother Feanor is explicitly stated to be the strongest of them all. And yet, Feanor is killed by a swarm of Balrogs.</p><p></p><p>If Balrogs are 8th level, and let's say a "swarm" means... 8, which seems to me about as many as could effectively coordinate against a single target... that would be... rusty here... a CR 14 encounter? So, Feanor is apparently level 13 ish, meaning Fingolfin would have to be... 11ish, at most? Meaning Morgoth could be no more than maybe level 15? Does this honestly sound right?</p><p></p><p>If it does, then I want to hear, <em>what does an epic level character in fluff look like?</em> <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" /></p><p></p><p></p><p>(btw, does it sound like I'm annoyed at all? I hope not. I just love debating this stuff.)</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Belzamus, post: 5890154, member: 61612"] I did mean the opposite. Oops. And I was actually referring to mostly the second article, I agree that the Fellowship is in the ~2-6 range I suppose we could infer something like a featherfall, I was just assuming, absent any mention of Gandalf using a spell to avoid the impact, he just straight-up tanked it. Anyway, it's described as What I take from this is that this was a prolonged battle, not just a couple spells hurled back and forth, otherwise it wouldn't look like a "storm" to the on-lookers. From that, I conclude that not only are both combatants capable of casting the likes of fireball and chain lightning repeatedly, but that they are capable of surviving multiple such spells. So, are we to conclude that both have high resistance or immunity to such attacks? If so, why are they not pursuing more effective means of attack? Also, is a simple fireball spell capable of flashing ice to steam like that? /isn't so good with physics and DnD. I'll leave whatever "breaking the mountain" means, since that's pretty ambiguous. I also find it kind of... disheartening that a feat of endurance like fighting for 8 days straight while climbing however many miles nearly straight vertically counts for almost nothing simply because DnD has no system for emulating why those things should be special. And about magical Balrogs, quoth Gandalf after the situation in the chamber of Mazarbul, So, from this we can glean that the Balrog is at least as skilled in magic as Gandalf. At the very least, he has a Dispel Magic SLA and a caster level sufficient to overcome Gandalf's Hold Portal. But, that's all discounting something else I feel is rather significant. Both Gandalf and the Balrog are Maiar, lesser Ainur. We see in the Silmarillion that the Valar, the greater Ainur, are continent-busters. So, extrapolating down, a powerful Maiar might be in mountain-buster territory -- and we do see Huan causing widespread destruction simply from his roar. Where I'm going with this is, the Balrog is a Maiar aspected to fire and destruction. I.e., one of the stronger Maiar in terms of combat abilities, so... should he not be higher than 8th level? That seems really low to me, no matter which way you approach it from. For more scaling, Fingolfin was able to contend with Morgoth for... a week straight, was it? Who, even in his weakened form was causing tremendous geographic devastation with his strikes. And yet, his brother Feanor is explicitly stated to be the strongest of them all. And yet, Feanor is killed by a swarm of Balrogs. If Balrogs are 8th level, and let's say a "swarm" means... 8, which seems to me about as many as could effectively coordinate against a single target... that would be... rusty here... a CR 14 encounter? So, Feanor is apparently level 13 ish, meaning Fingolfin would have to be... 11ish, at most? Meaning Morgoth could be no more than maybe level 15? Does this honestly sound right? If it does, then I want to hear, [I]what does an epic level character in fluff look like?[/I] :p (btw, does it sound like I'm annoyed at all? I hope not. I just love debating this stuff.) [/QUOTE]
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