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<blockquote data-quote="Alzrius" data-source="post: 5890734" data-attributes="member: 8461"><p>No worries, man. I love debating this stuff too. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This is basically the case for most of these points, as the language leaves room for a fairly wide interpretation. Especially salient in this regard is magic in Middle Earth, as it tends to be referenced rather than described.</p><p></p><p>For me, given that the two are a wizard and a supernatural creature, it seemed more likely to me that they have some sort of magical method of cushioning their fall, such as via <em>feather fall</em> or something similar. I suppose they could have just taken the impact damage, since even a fall of several miles will top out at 20d6. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite7" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue :p" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":p" /></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Is the part about it being eight days long described somewhere else, because I'm not really seeing anything in the quoted passage to make me think this was a particularly long fight. Storms can be fairly brief, after all.</p><p></p><p>Likewise, the amount of lightning and fire tossed about could reasonably have been as brief as two or three castings per combatant. Throw in some good saves and low damage rolls, maybe a protective spell or two, and it's fairly reasonable to assume a modest damage output (particularly since the damage was still enough to be deadly for both of them).</p><p></p><p>Likewise, if you haven't prepared the right spells (and have set spell-like abilities) then you pretty much have to go with the strategy you've got (though that's supposition, as there's little to say either way about the efficacy of a given attack in that fight).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I think this one varied across editions, but I'd just chalk it up to flavor text from the GM.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Fair enough.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yeah, that one can be rather disappointing, particularly if you want to include combat fatigue as a tactic (which, when it comes to actual fighting, is a major component of any battle). To date, the only times I've seen rules for this are when I've asked two different (minor) third-party companies about coming up with systems for this, and while both did, they left something to be desired...though I suspect that's simply due to the nature of how D&D combat works.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yeah, but that's a very rough approximation that Gandalf and that Balrog were evenly matched. Which does make sense overall, since fighting a foe with a CR equal to your level, by yourself, will result in an equal match under the game rules. Hence why both died. There's nothing here about their objective measurement of power, though.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This is tricky, because it's based on the idea that since X are similar to Y, they must have similar abilities. However, based on my limited understanding of real-world lore about angels, different ones had different specialties, and so different powers - is there perhaps room for understanding that only some valar could crack continents?</p><p></p><p>Even if not, then that's still iffy in regards to maiar. Balors and dretches are both demons, for example, but the latter is far and away weaker than the former.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I thought it was fire and shadow, but leaving that aside, the placement of a "stronger" creature is still relative. If you accept Justin Alexander's premise that, in the real world, the most legendary people of history (in terms of mastering a given area) are no higher than 5th level, then an 8th-level creature starts to look like something of a demi-god.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The objective point here is the level of destruction Morgoth was causing (was he still that destructive even after being weakened? Likewise, when exactly did he fight Fingolfin?). That's hard to do in D&D, since it keeps most things to a tactical level. One could suppose that some 7th- or 8th-level spell-like abilities, perhaps with metamagic, could passably recreate that. Even if not, there are some <a href="http://www.purpleduckgames.com/eabm" target="_blank">third-party supplements</a> that make it possible.</p><p></p><p>Add in that such things don't necessarily reflect on things like hit points, saving throws, etc. and you can make a reasonable case for a CR 15 Morgoth.</p><p></p><p>Likewise, economy of actions is pretty important in D&D, and being surrounded by eight creatures can quickly overcome a single opponent. It's certainly not impossible (particularly with some bad rolls for Feanor and some good ones for the balrogs) that eight CR 8 creatures can down a 14th-level character.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Bear in mind, that's going to depend on the relative disparity between the epic character and the viewing characters. To a group of 1st-level mortals, watching the CR 15 Morgoth being defeated is like watching a god being taken down.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Alzrius, post: 5890734, member: 8461"] No worries, man. I love debating this stuff too. ;) This is basically the case for most of these points, as the language leaves room for a fairly wide interpretation. Especially salient in this regard is magic in Middle Earth, as it tends to be referenced rather than described. For me, given that the two are a wizard and a supernatural creature, it seemed more likely to me that they have some sort of magical method of cushioning their fall, such as via [i]feather fall[/i] or something similar. I suppose they could have just taken the impact damage, since even a fall of several miles will top out at 20d6. :p Is the part about it being eight days long described somewhere else, because I'm not really seeing anything in the quoted passage to make me think this was a particularly long fight. Storms can be fairly brief, after all. Likewise, the amount of lightning and fire tossed about could reasonably have been as brief as two or three castings per combatant. Throw in some good saves and low damage rolls, maybe a protective spell or two, and it's fairly reasonable to assume a modest damage output (particularly since the damage was still enough to be deadly for both of them). Likewise, if you haven't prepared the right spells (and have set spell-like abilities) then you pretty much have to go with the strategy you've got (though that's supposition, as there's little to say either way about the efficacy of a given attack in that fight). I think this one varied across editions, but I'd just chalk it up to flavor text from the GM. Fair enough. Yeah, that one can be rather disappointing, particularly if you want to include combat fatigue as a tactic (which, when it comes to actual fighting, is a major component of any battle). To date, the only times I've seen rules for this are when I've asked two different (minor) third-party companies about coming up with systems for this, and while both did, they left something to be desired...though I suspect that's simply due to the nature of how D&D combat works. Yeah, but that's a very rough approximation that Gandalf and that Balrog were evenly matched. Which does make sense overall, since fighting a foe with a CR equal to your level, by yourself, will result in an equal match under the game rules. Hence why both died. There's nothing here about their objective measurement of power, though. This is tricky, because it's based on the idea that since X are similar to Y, they must have similar abilities. However, based on my limited understanding of real-world lore about angels, different ones had different specialties, and so different powers - is there perhaps room for understanding that only some valar could crack continents? Even if not, then that's still iffy in regards to maiar. Balors and dretches are both demons, for example, but the latter is far and away weaker than the former. I thought it was fire and shadow, but leaving that aside, the placement of a "stronger" creature is still relative. If you accept Justin Alexander's premise that, in the real world, the most legendary people of history (in terms of mastering a given area) are no higher than 5th level, then an 8th-level creature starts to look like something of a demi-god. The objective point here is the level of destruction Morgoth was causing (was he still that destructive even after being weakened? Likewise, when exactly did he fight Fingolfin?). That's hard to do in D&D, since it keeps most things to a tactical level. One could suppose that some 7th- or 8th-level spell-like abilities, perhaps with metamagic, could passably recreate that. Even if not, there are some [url=http://www.purpleduckgames.com/eabm]third-party supplements[/url] that make it possible. Add in that such things don't necessarily reflect on things like hit points, saving throws, etc. and you can make a reasonable case for a CR 15 Morgoth. Likewise, economy of actions is pretty important in D&D, and being surrounded by eight creatures can quickly overcome a single opponent. It's certainly not impossible (particularly with some bad rolls for Feanor and some good ones for the balrogs) that eight CR 8 creatures can down a 14th-level character. Bear in mind, that's going to depend on the relative disparity between the epic character and the viewing characters. To a group of 1st-level mortals, watching the CR 15 Morgoth being defeated is like watching a god being taken down. [/QUOTE]
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