ECL Races, EVER worth it?

[Andor]

Actually I think a point not explored by the current ECL/LA system is that some of the races considered to have a +LA are already suffering a considerable penalty from their racial hit dice.

A bugbear for example is a strong +1 LA race on the basis of his stats and natural armour. However he also has 3 humanoid hit dice. The humanoid 'class' is barely better than the commoner NPC class. And those cruddy NPC classes are supposed to be counted as a -1 ECL adjustment, which I feel should translate into a -1 LA as well.

In other words a Bugbear with no class levels should be a level 3 character because he has already paid for his improved stats with his incredibly crappy humanoid hit dice.

Mind you knocking a point off the LA of creatures with more than one hit dice isn't always needed. Outsider and Dragon hit dice are pretty good deals IMHO.

 

[rekres]

Well, using the rules in Wulf's expanded Grim Tales CR system, you CAN do character CR so ECL = CR.

No, no, no! That's just wrong....

It's like someone asking how long that sword is and you answering 'Two pounds'... different measurements completely.

CR is Challenge Rating. It is applied ONLY to monsters. It is a measure of how tough a fight is supoosed to be for four iconic characters (1 fighter, 1 rogue, 1 cleric, 1 wizard).

ECL is Effective Character Level. It is applied to only to PCs and NPCs. It is a comparitive measure of how balanced a character is compared to other characters.

So the original statement 'CR != ECL' is always true. Any rule mechanics that attempt to modify that behavior distort the original meanings, and should therefore use other terminology instead of ECL or CR.

 

[rekres]

Actually I think a point not explored by the current ECL/LA system is that some of the races considered to have a +LA are already suffering a considerable penalty from their racial hit dice.

A bugbear for example is a strong +1 LA race on the basis of his stats and natural armour. However he also has 3 humanoid hit dice. The humanoid 'class' is barely better than the commoner NPC class. And those cruddy NPC classes are supposed to be counted as a -1 ECL adjustment, which I feel should translate into a -1 LA as well.

In other words a Bugbear with no class levels should be a level 3 character because he has already paid for his improved stats with his incredibly crappy humanoid hit dice.

Mind you knocking a point off the LA of creatures with more than one hit dice isn't always needed. Outsider and Dragon hit dice are pretty good deals IMHO.

One house rule I've been using in my games. When they get used as a PC, all monster races drop 1 HD and replace it with 1 class level. Whether those are 1 HD goblins or 3 HD bugbears or whatever.