Ecology of the Hengeyokai (+ New Race Option!)

[Nemesis Destiny]

speaking about your point of comparing this new race to the shifters, im a little confused. The shifters dont really seem to have much mechanical effects to represent actually shape shifting. An encounter that you can activate when you get bloodied doesnt really compare to an actual shape shifting power.

Speaking with animals, hybrid forms, animals forms. this race shares much more with the druid than shifters.

That's why I said "alternate race features" - instead of powering up when bloodied, these ones would have the racial at-will listed in the article.

In fact, they would get most of what is already in the article, maybe. But, and here is the important kicker - they could benefit from all the material that already exists for shifters, and hence won't completely suck and be left twisting in the breeze as far as support goes.

And therefore will also not contribute to further option bloat.

But hey, it's a big game. Whatever you prefer.

 

[herrozerro]

That's why I said "alternate race features" - instead of powering up when bloodied, these ones would have the racial at-will listed in the article.

In fact, they would get most of what is already in the article, maybe. But, and here is the important kicker - they could benefit from all the material that already exists for shifters, and hence won't completely suck and be left twisting in the breeze as far as support goes.

And therefore will also not contribute to further option bloat.

But hey, it's a big game. Whatever you prefer.

and my point still stands, I believe that's a poor way to look at the game. It would seem that you are proposing that the game should be reduced to the lowest common denominator.

Weapon classes should be "Weapon guy" Magic uses should be "Mage guy". Races could be lumped into "Tall Guy" and "Short guy".

It would seem that anything beyond that would be option bloat correct?

Personally I like the Many subsets route. It's not masked "Option Bloat"

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

and my point still stands, I believe that's a poor way to look at the game. It would seem that you are proposing that the game should be reduced to the lowest common denominator.

Weapon classes should be "Weapon guy" Magic uses should be "Mage guy". Races could be lumped into "Tall Guy" and "Short guy".

It would seem that anything beyond that would be option bloat correct?

Personally I like the Many subsets route. It's not masked "Option Bloat"

No, you're oversimplifying what I'm saying and/or misunderstanding it.

What I was suggesting would not deprive anyone of options, it would just organize them better. The game would be left with less dead-ends, but just as many possibilities.

Anyway, I'm not here to tell you how to enjoy the game; like I said, whatever you prefer.

I've said my bit, so I'll leave it at that.

 

[JPL]

This also would work as a variant shifter with the Tiny form as a new racial ability option, sure. The advantage is that you get access to the existing feats and such for shifters. The real question is whether it's a single subrace or a slew of them.

This article is a pretty faithful update of the original Oriental Adventures race . . . if you treat them as shifters, and allow yourself some leeway for reimagining, perhaps you end up dropping a few of these animal form options, and maybe go for more of a kung fu five-animals vibe:

Tiger = Longtooth (that's easy)
Crane = . . . . I got nothing.
Leopard = Swiftrun
Snake = Sharptooth
Dragon = Ironscale

3rd Edition had some other shifter subraces already ---- Cliffwalk, Beasthide, Longstride, Wildhunt, Dreamsight, Gorebrute --- which could be interesting additions to 4th Edition.

Interesting to think about just porting some of these existing races to Kara-Tur and thinking about cultural differences and minor "subrace" tweaks. I mean, Kara-Tur dragonborn? That's gotta be cool. Kara-Tur devas? Super cool.

 

[Nemesis Destiny]

This also would work as a variant shifter with the Tiny form as a new racial ability option, sure. The advantage is that you get access to the existing feats and such for shifters. The real question is whether it's a single subrace or a slew of them.

This article is a pretty faithful update of the original Oriental Adventures race . . . if you treat them as shifters, and allow yourself some leeway for reimagining, perhaps you end up dropping a few of these animal form options, and maybe go for more of a kung fu five-animals vibe.

3rd Edition had some other shifter subraces already ---- Cliffwalk, Beasthide, Longstride, Wildhunt, Dreamsight, Gorebrute --- which could be interesting additions to 4th Edition.

Interesting to think about just porting some of these existing races to Kara-Tur and thinking about cultural differences and minor "subrace" tweaks. I mean, Kara-Tur dragonborn? That's gotta be cool. Kara-Tur devas? Super cool.

I'd have XP'd you for this, but I must spread it around.

Good to know I'm not just typing gibberish and that someone 'gets' what I'm saying.

 

[mneme]

ND: I get what you're saying, but I don't agree in this case. Shifter is the "half were" race, and is tied to lycanthropy, bloodlust, the moon, therianthropic regeneration, being a predator, and so on. Hengyokai is the "faerie animal that turns human" race, and is tied to the fey, to specific traits based on animal, spirit stuff, trickster stuff, and so on.

Frankly, aside from the animal part, they just don't have much in common. I wouldn't want to use a shifter template for the wolf from Ivan and the Firebird; that's a magical shapeshifting animal. Nor would I want to use a magical animal race for someone with loup-garou blood in them. The myths are simply very different.

Mechanically, I'm just not seeing any overlap; any reason to combine the races, I mean, there are 36 shifter feats. 8 of them are longtooth, 9 of them are razorclaw, 11 are both. So lets look at the remaining ones:

Sturdy Shifter: would be broken with Hengayokai. (gain 5/10/20 temps whenever you use your racial power).
Crow's Flight: ignore difficult terrain when you run, +2 to athletics and acrobatics. Ok, this one would likely be ok.
Blood Devourer Shifting: All about therianthropy and bloodlust. No.
Draw out the beast: Treat yourself as bloodied. Intended to synergize with the shifter bloodlust abilities.
Shifter's Agility: +5 to agility/acrobatics when you use your racial power. Actually, probably ok, though strong for a skill feat.
Wild Senses: +3 to initiative, bonuses to track. Probably ok, though not really appropriate for all Hengayoki.
Holy Savagery: All about being bloodied. No.
Urban Predator: More predator stuff, but not awful.

So, they'd gain what? 4 feats for making them shifters? Plus access to 4 more feats that aren't appropriate, one of which is broken?

Fundamentally, your principle isn't bad, but you're wrong here. The two races have no conceptual overlap.

Henkyokai is about being part animal. (and about being fey, something completely uncovered here).

Shifter is about being part -monster-.

 

[Shroomy]

Hey, I'm the author of this article, so if you have any questions about it, feel free to ask. Thanks!

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Honestly, I can see what N.D. is saying. I think mneme is right though, it just isn't quite the same thing.

Going deeper, shape shifting in general is a really common mythological theme and you could dig up 100 different shape shifter myths, several more of which could easily have mechanics as races, curses, classes, or whatever.

It seems more like a generalized shape shifting set of mechanics would be the way to address the whole thing. Within that box you could create specific rules for most of these types of things. That's really a 'not in 4e' discussion though.

As it stands, Hengeyokai seem like they warrant a race. Yeah, there's some overhead for each new race, but you want something to be GOOD, not just hacked in halfway.

 

[Neverfate]

Hey, I'm the author of this article, so if you have any questions about it, feel free to ask. Thanks!

Awesome article and racial write up. I really like the various forms a player can take. Out of curiosity how did you make the final decisions on what forms to include or exclude (if any)?

 

[Shroomy]

Awesome article and racial write up. I really like the various forms a player can take. Out of curiosity how did you make the final decisions on what forms to include or exclude (if any)?

I did get to decide which ones to include; it's basically the 3e list minus the weasel. I ultimately settled on 12 subraces, but I can't remember why I excluded the weasel.