Effective ways to capture PC's without magic?

[Lord Pendragon]

it would add a lot more fun to the adventure (believe it or not)

I sincerely hope, at the end of the day, your players share your point of view. All too often I've seen DMs believe this, only to be shocked by players who did not find it nearly as entertaining.

and they can easily get their gear back if they just look for it once they escape.

Again, my DM-sense is tingling. Any time you expect your PCs to do one thing, they'll surprise you and do another. I'd be ready to change room design on the fly, so if they don't think to look for their gear, they can "stumble upon" the room with their gear in it, regardless.

I would still like to try hard to capture them because that's what the NPC's would do in the situation.

In such a situation, I usually have the NPCs try to capture the PCs too, and get slaughtered in the process. I don't min/max them out to succeed, because really, success is less fun than failure, in this situation. YMMV.

 

[Oryan77]

Since it's an underwater campaign, I presume they're all able to breathe and move easily underwater. Correct?

With the classes in the group, a straightforward melee-oriented group of enemies should be able to beat them down pretty easily. All you need is to make it reasonably difficult for the spellcasters to cast. Sahuagin are quite tough for their CR, so throw a few class levels on them and I think you'll be good to go. An EL 9-10 encounter should do it.

Yeah they'll have ways to breath by the time they go underwater (I sure hope so or they won't get far)

My worry about beating them down with melee Sahuagin is that the cleric focuses on a very high AC. I usually need to roll a 20 just to hit him. I will be trying to get him to trade his full plate in for more realistic underwater armor which would help a bit vs his AC...but I know whatever he chooses to do, he'll still work something out to gain that high AC back.

I just want to have backup options so I don't have to rely on hitting them until they reach 0 HP's.

 

[Oryan77]

I sincerely hope, at the end of the day, your players share your point of view.

Maybe not at the end of the day, but at the end of the adventure they will. Some of my best memories of games were when I was captured and escaped against all odds. Maybe if you don't trust your DM then I can see why you'd be annoyed.

Again, my DM-sense is tingling. Any time you expect your PCs to do one thing, they'll surprise you and do another. I'd be ready to change room design on the fly, so if they don't think to look for their gear, they can "stumble upon" the room with their gear in it, regardless.

Yep, which is why I added the (believe it or not) comment because I knew someone would try throwing the old railroading line at me. I'm a competent DM, but thanks for your concern

If I'm actually trying to railroad in the DM's favor, I always make sure it ends up being railroaded back in the PC's favor. So yes, if they actively search for their equipment, they will find it all there if it means I'm sticking it in different rooms until they find it.

If I didn't plan to capture PC's, and it turns out I do capture them....then I'd be more strict on them finding their stuff.

Anyway, rather than checking to see if I'm a good DM or not, let's just stick to replying to my original post

 

[shilsen]

Yeah they'll have ways to breath by the time they go underwater (I sure hope so or they won't get far)

My worry about beating them down with melee Sahuagin is that the cleric focuses on a very high AC. I usually need to roll a 20 just to hit him. I will be trying to get him to trade his full plate in for more realistic underwater armor which would help a bit vs his AC...but I know whatever he chooses to do, he'll still work something out to gain that high AC back.

How high does he get his AC? I can't see how a 7th/8th lvl PC could get AC high enough to be unhittable by melee-oriented NPCs. Just off the top of my head, a CR5 sahuagin (Ftr2/Bbn1) could have a +14 bonus to hit with just a masterwork weapon. Throw in a potion of Bull's Strength and/or a flanking ally and that's a +16 to hit (+18 with both).

And however high one's AC is, it doesn't help versus attacks that go after touch AC and maneuvers that ignore AC altogether. Use trip, sunder, disarm.

 

[Nightfall]

Ingested/touch poisons. Diseases. Uhm hire outside help that does have magic?

 

[SteelDraco]

The scenario is this:

(Underwater campaign) 4 PC's of lvl's 7-8 (sorcerer, cleric, ranger, rogue) will be ambushed by Sahuagins with several nets and anything else I can come up with to make it easier for the PC's to be captured. I don't want to have to stick a spellcasting Sahuagin in the mix unless I have to.

I hope that helps.

Oooh. Sahuagin are fun. The important thing to remember about them is they're smart. Base racial Int is 14 - with that group composition, there's a fair chance they're smarter than ALL THE PCs. Play them that way.

They'll attack in a situation to their advantage, not the PCs. They're natural hunters, so they know the territory, and know what critters might be around. Maybe they'll get another creature to attack the PCs, and watch from a distance, then attack just as all the PCs buffs spells are wearing off, and they think they're safe. Several shark attacks in a row would really wear down the group casters - imagine getting attacked by a half-dozen sharks every ten minutes for an hour. Only after that does the actual attack come.

Terrain should be advantageous to them. They have blindsense, so kelp forests and such would be effective, especially considering they're going to be worried about ranged attacks. They could spray giant squid ink into the water, giving them cover so they can approach without getting blasted.

They'll go after the most dangerous target first - probably the sorcerer or the cleric. They could actually just grab the PCs one at a time, if there are enough of them to cover a retreat. If the PCs are surface-dwellers using magic to survive, they could attack that - sundering a Helm of Underwater Action or something would be pretty spiteful as a DM move, but it also makes a lot of sense from the sahuagin perspective. There's also a decent chance they're moving a lot faster than the PCs, which further suggests hit and run tactics.

For group composition... hm. I'd have Fighter1s or Ranger1s be the main force of the group, with a Rogue3 as the second and a Fighter2/Barbarian4 as the leader. A couple of sharks, too, of course. The leader and the fighters charge to engage, and then the rangers and rogue come in from behind and below to get the casters.

 

[taferial]

Underwater ehh? well that makes things intresting.

My first thought is to have a Sahuagin rush into camp with a squid in a cage, rattle the cage, and hey-presto ink cloud. Im thinking effects like a darkness spell, and it cant be dispelled as its natural. Should wrap up the casters nicely, also a nice comedy/ payback moment as, during the escape, they enounter Sahuagin uselessly rattleing cages with (now empty) squid in them.

Also keep in mind the 3 dimensional enviroment, flanking from above/ below etc, theres a lot of scope in areas where the protagonists can run spheres around people. Other tactics like sahuagin droping a net from above, and a trained shark retriever drags the entagled party member away or useing large squid instead of nets might be apropiate too.

Ive aslo got this image of a trip-trained Tiger squid with a huge grin on its face...

Edit: just re-read SteelDraco's post, I see Im thinking along similar lines. Although i dont favour hit and run so much, gives the party too long to think

 

[Oryan77]

Oh thanks guys, great ideas with the Sahuagin tactics! Some I didn't even consider, which I'm now eager to use and fully plan out

I wasn't really thinking about giving them class levels but maybe I need to if I want to make sure I'm successful. I was just trying to do this without toughening up the guys if I could.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Maybe not at the end of the day, but at the end of the adventure they will. Some of my best memories of games were when I was captured and escaped against all odds. Maybe if you don't trust your DM then I can see why you'd be annoyed.

It doesn't have anything to do with DM trust. I trust my DM explicitly. It doesn't mean I enjoy having my PC captured.

Yep, which is why I added the (believe it or not) comment because I knew someone would try throwing the old railroading line at me. I'm a competent DM, but thanks for your concern

I don't believe I mentioned railroading at all, unless it was to suggest railroading their gear back to them.

Anyway, rather than checking to see if I'm a good DM or not, let's just stick to replying to my original post

Rather than trying to control what folks reply with on a public message board, let's just continue conversing in a friendly way.

 

[SteelDraco]

Oh thanks guys, great ideas with the Sahuagin tactics! Some I didn't even consider, which I'm now eager to use and fully plan out

I wasn't really thinking about giving them class levels but maybe I need to if I want to make sure I'm successful. I was just trying to do this without toughening up the guys if I could.

I always prefer to give intelligent creatures class levels; it makes more sense to me than advancing them as monsters. After all, they're smart - why shouldn't they train and get better at what they do?

The other problem is that sahuagin are pretty squishy without any advancement - AC 16 and 11 hp means that any character of 7-8th level will go through them with ease. One well-placed evocation and a good chunk of the critters are dead. That's why they need to get as close as possible before attacking, and hit hard and fast.

I was suggesting hit-and-run tactics because you seemed to be having a problem with the cleric, and were mostly worried about him. Tactics like that are designed to curtail a spellcaster, because they'll either cast all their buffs, and then have them run out, or not cast them to save for later, and be at a disadvantage during the fight.

Good luck with the encounter.