Effigy Creatures - Hints and Tips

[Iku Rex]

You can't make effigies out of already templated creatures. No, it doesn't actually say that, but the self evident doesn't have to be stated outright.

Unless it somehow specifies that templates are not allowed on the base creature, then it sounds like you could do it (note, I don't have the Effigy Creature Template description in front of me at the moment)..

The purpose of the rules is to convey the intent of the person writing the rules. If the intent is clear from the rules, then the rules are clear. Since no sane person could think the writer intended for the effigy template to be applied to some freakish collection of templates, that's not allowed.

The effigy template (or the shapechange spell) have implicit restrictions beyond those specifically included. You can't pile on an infinite number of templates, you can't base it on "elite" creatures, you can't assume the creature "picked" only feats to boost it's natural weapons and so and so forth.

If anyone thinks otherwise, please start a new thread. I started this thread to explore the practical usage of the effigy template, not to indulge in munchkin "it-doesn't-explicitly-say-that-I-can't-so..." fantasies.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Since no sane person could think the writer intended for the effigy template to be applied to some freakish collection of templates, that's not allowed.

Err, that's a really big assumption there, which I'm not sure I buy.

Self-evident also means, "I can't prove it," by the way.

 

[TheGogmagog]

Wyvern is a dragon, so it would work. Unfortunately, a wyvern's STR is less than a tiger or lions and their Dex is 12. The effigy template reduces a creatures Dex by 2, so that sucks.

Wyvern looks sucky in the Monster Manual block... but add one HD and it's size increases, +8 to str. Four more (IIRC) and it's size increases again another +8. +16 to Str, Con goes up 8 and Natural armor increase faster than the size and dex penalties accumulate. Aslo at 8 and 12 hd, you get +1 ability to either balance dex or even out str and con. On top of that the Wyvern has 6 attacks, multiattach, flyby attack and a poision whose DC increases nicely (not sure if you get poision with effigy).

Granted you are dealing with quite a bit of money at that point:
Gargantuan 25000 + 12x2000 gp for each HD. 49,000 gp?

 

[Wycen]

Wyvern looks sucky in the Monster Manual block... but add one HD and it's size increases, +8 to str. Four more (IIRC) and it's size increases again another +8. +16 to Str, Con goes up 8 and Natural armor increase faster than the size and dex penalties accumulate. Aslo at 8 and 12 hd, you get +1 ability to either balance dex or even out str and con. On top of that the Wyvern has 6 attacks, multiattach, flyby attack and a poision whose DC increases nicely (not sure if you get poision with effigy).

Granted you are dealing with quite a bit of money at that point:
Gargantuan 25000 + 12x2000 gp for each HD. 49,000 gp?

Size is an important consideration. I still wouldn't choose a wyvern and upsize it. A Huge or bigger creature suddenly is that much less likely to go everywhere in a dungeon that its master can go. Large is in my opinion as big as you want to go, so it can still squeeze into those corridors.

 

[IcyCool]

If anyone thinks otherwise, please start a new thread. I started this thread to explore the practical usage of the effigy template, not to indulge in munchkin "it-doesn't-explicitly-say-that-I-can't-so..." fantasies.

Calling people insane or "munchkin" is generally frowned upon here, from what I understand. That being said, I apologize for "indulging in munchkin fantasies." But if you don't like the answers to your questions, don't ask them. It's self-evident.

Edit - At the risk of more vitriol, might I suggest taking a look at vermin? If you can find a diminutive or fine sized vermin and make an effigy of it, it could be quite the useful spy.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Edit - At the risk of more vitriol, might I suggest taking a look at vermin? If you can find a diminutive or fine sized vermin and make an effigy of it, it could be quite the useful spy.

Now that sounds like a great idea - although vermin tend to be pretty high-HD creatures for their size, so it might be more expensive for a spider than a bird.

 

[IcyCool]

Now that sounds like a great idea - although vermin tend to be pretty high-HD creatures for their size, so it might be more expensive for a spider than a bird.

Something that size is bound to have a fractional hit die though. Which brings up the question, if you have to pay 1000gp for a 1 HD effigy (plus body cost), do you have to pay 500gp for a 1/2 HD effigy (plus body cost)?

Monstrous Centipede, Scorpion, and Spider all have Tiny versions that clock in at 1 or less HD. I'm not sure, but I think the Hoard Scarab from the Draconomicon does as well. There are a couple of Fey creatures that might also be likely targets for this.

Now, if only you could apply the Effigy template to your familiar, much like the Stitched Flesh familiar from Libris Mortis.