Eight essential rogue skills?

[Ogre Mage]

Two questions--

1. Rogues get 8 skills points/level. What would you consider to be the "eight essential skills" for a straight (non-multiclassed) rogue?


2. Which feat would you generally prefer for a rogue--

a. Alertness: +2 to listen and spot
b. Stealth: +2 to hide and move silently
c. Mechanical Aptitude: +2 to open locks and disable device
d. Fast Talker: +2 to bluff and diplomacy

 

[darkbard]

it's not the kind of answer you're looking for but i don't believe there are truly just 8 essential skills for a rogue. when i'm playing a rogue or designing an npc, i have a really hard time paring down the skills to 8 or so [and i usually have rogues with better than average intelligence]. i guess it really depends on what type of rogue you're playing. certainly, every rogue probably needs search, open lock and disable device, assuming you're a fairly typical party without another rogue character. but beyond that?

are you aiming for the intelligent political intrigue type character? if so, appraise, bluff, diplomacy, disguise, forgery, gather information, pick pocket and sense motive are all useful.

or the stealthy burglar with balance, climb, escape artist, hide, jump, listen, move silently?

or the swashbuckling hero with balance, bluff, diplomacy, intimidate, jump, perform, ride [cr-class] and tumble?

it all depends on the direction you see the character evolving.

 

[Umbran]

I think the game is designed (quite rightly) so that you can almost never have enough skill points to do everything you really want to do. There's always choices and compromises to be made.

 

[mmu1]

The eight essential rogue skills are : Hide, Move Silently, Open Lock, Disable Device, Listen, Spot, Search and Tumble.

If you plan on doing all the things that a rogue is expected to do in the course of the kind of adventures the 3E designers had in mind, chances are you'll need the first seven, and Tumble is the one skill that makes rogues viable in combat.

Of course, you only really need to max out Disable Device and Search (since not doing so is extremely dangerous to your health), and can get away with shaving a point or two off the other ones - so you can easily broaden the list if the campaign calls for social skills, for example.

As far as those feats go, you can almost never go wrong with getting a boost to Disable Device, trap DCs being what they are... Unless you know the campaign is likely to emphasize other areas.

 

[thalmin]

If you are looking for the traditional, 1st edition style, what mmu1 said, but with climb instead of tumble.
Improved initiative isn't a bad feat choice if you want more chances for sneak attack.

 

[TroyXavier]

I like Stealth there.

The 8 skills I'd have
Sleight Of Hand, Open Lock, Move Silently, Hide, Listen, Climb, Use Magic Device, and Tumble.

 

[haiiro]

The eight essential rogue skills are : Hide, Move Silently, Open Lock, Disable Device, Listen, Spot, Search and Tumble.

If you plan on doing all the things that a rogue is expected to do in the course of the kind of adventures the 3E designers had in mind, chances are you'll need the first seven, and Tumble is the one skill that makes rogues viable in combat.

mmu1 has it right: those are the critical rogue skills for the "average" 3e game.

Of the feats you offered, I would opt for Alertness -- Listen and Spot will always serve you well, and you in an "average" party (traditionally: fighter, rogue, cleric, wizard) you will need to act as the eyes and ears.

Personally, I wouldn't take any skill-boosting feats -- I'd start on the Spring Attack chain or take Improved Initiative.

 

[Technik4]

Hide (dex), Move Silently (dex), Open Locks (dex), Tumble (dex)
Disable Device (int), Search (int)
Spot (wis)
Bluff (cha)

Those are my 8 essentials. I find spot checks to be way more prevelant than listen checks, plus both barbs and monks have listen (and not spot) and rangers and bards both have spot and listen.

My choice of bluff is important because it provides a good tactical option (feinting), has impressive syngery with other rogue skills, and has very good out-of-combat application. I also don't think I've seen a rogue built without it (although I probably have, just can't think of it off the top of my head).

My next choice for power would be use magic device, for coolness read lips.

As for the feat, if it fit the character I would probably end up taking Stealth or Fast Talker, although Alertness can be nice for getting into prcs. I wouldn't take Mechanical Aptitude unless I was a gnome or dwarf rogue.

Technik

 

[JayOmega]

Two questions--

1. Rogues get 8 skills points/level. What would you consider to be the "eight essential skills" for a straight (non-multiclassed) rogue?

In order of usefulness:

Move Silently. Scout rogue? Thief rogue? Spy rogue? Diplomat rogue? Regardless, you'll find yourself sneaking around eventually.

Hide. See above.

Tumble. Lots of useful combat effects can be gained by having a good tumble skill. It's almost like getting the mobility and expertise feats for free. Also, 5 ranks bought gets you +4 in synergy bonuses.

Bluff. Spend 5 ranks, get a possible +8 in synergy bonuses to other skills. A very efficient use of skill points. Also useful in combat for the pure rogue with lots of sneak attack dice.

Search. Again, regardless of your roguish specialty, you will need this skill at some point in your career. Not as often as hide and move silently, though, so it's down here further in the list.

Use Magic Device. It's an exclusive skill, so a pure rogue is one of the few who can get good use out of it. Rogues spend a lot of time solo, so being able to use wands and scrolls readily is worth the large skill point investment to be "good" at it. For proper munchkinity, buy other skills early in your career, and buy multiple levels of UMD at higher levels. You want a +10 or +15 to your roll before you get serious about using it, so you don't suffer "mishaps" on the DC20 and DC25 tasks.

Rogues of all types need these six skills. Beyond these six, the skills you take depends on your specialty, and there's too many useful ones to keep everything maxed out. Try to keep the previous 6 maxed, and spread your other points among these skills... A thief or dungeoneer needs lots of ranks in Disable Device, and probably a few ranks in Open Locks, Climb, Spot, and Listen. Spies and diplomats need Diplomacy, Gather Information, and Sense Motive, and probably a few ranks of Disguise and Forgery. A scout needs Spot maxed out, and split ranks in Climb, Jump, Swim, and Listen. If no one else fills the tracker role, he needs the Track feat and cross-class Wilderness Lore (3.5E: Survival) ranks to use it.

...if you do need a solid set of only 8 skills for a generalist rogue, numbers 7 and 8 should be Disable Device and, believe it or not, Swim. Disable Device isn't easily done in any way but by using the skill. Being stuck in water without the Swim skill can be deadly, since Strength is one of your dump stats, and it's not uncommon to find treasures kept underwater, or to find entire adventures set underwater.

So what skills do you not need?

Climb. Use levitating/flying magic instead. Your strength is a dump stat, so by the time you have enough class levels to buy the ranks to climb well, you can get permanent flying magic pretty cheaply. Early on, a potion of levitate or a scroll of Alter Self (to gain wings) can fill the bill.

Craft. A flavor skill. For rogues with high Int only.

Decipher Script. Use UMD and carry a couple scrolls of Comprehend Languages.

Balance. See climb.

Disguise. Rarely used, so use magic instead. Read a scroll of Change Self or Alter Self to appear as someone else. (Unless you're a spy/diplomat style rogue, where the ranks will let you impersonate a specific individual accurately, which is a useful ability.)

Escape Artist. Like disguise, this is used rarely enough that it isn't worth the skill points to be good at it. Use Hide and Bluff and don't get caught in the first place. For the combat effects of the skill (nets, webs), by the time you have the ranks to really depend on the skill, you can find or buy some permanent Freedom of Movement magic.

Forgery. Again, a rarely-used skill, whose points are better off spent elsewhere. This is for high-Int rogues with skill points to burn.

Gather Information. Chances are you can role-play this and get by without the skill.

Innuendo. See Forgery.

Intimidate. See Forgery.

Intuit Direction. Going away in 3.5E. And as useful as a solar-powered flashlight in the first place.

Diplomacy. See Gather Information.

Appraise. See Gather Information; you can have multiple buyers bid on something, and chances are you'll find at least one honest one.

Open Lock. Find the key if it's a delicate chest or if it is likely to have fragile contents, otherwise Disable the traps and let the party muscle bash it open. If you absolutely need to get through a door quietly and without the key, use UMD to read a scroll of Silence and have the party muscle bash it open.

Perform. See Craft.

Pick Pocket. Real money is in vaults and safes, not pockets. If you really need the parlor tricks, be a Gnome and use the racial Prestidigitation spell. Or (have you heard this one yet?) get a scroll of Prestidigitation. If you really need the contents of somebody's pockets, have the party muscle bash him open.

Profession. See Craft.

Read Lips. See Forgery. Use clairaudience scrolls with UMD for the two times in your character's career that you'd need this skill.

Sense Motive. See Gather Information. Use Detect Thoughts magic with UMD if absolutely necessary.

Spot. You get Uncanny Dodge and Evasion. Who cares who sneaks up on you? Anything much nastier than you in combat is either (1) not likely to be very sneaky, so you'll spot it without the ranks, or (2) is way out of your league, so you're a corpse whether you spot it or not.

Listen. See spot. (See spot run.)

Use Rope. For climbing purposes, try flying. For tying-up-prisoners purposes, try keeping them unconscious. Better, try keeping them dead, or let the Paladin deal with the prisoners.


So there's the theme for the rogue with only 8 skill points per level. Skills you use frequently (Hide, Move Silently, Tumble), skills you use without advance warning (Swim, Bluff), skills with combat applications (Tumble, Bluff), and skills that aren't easily duplicated with magic (Disable Device) you should spend points on. For other skills, you should buy relatively-inexpensive scrolls (0th, 1st, and 2nd-level spells) and get by with Use Magic Device rolls.

2. Which feat would you generally prefer for a rogue--

a. Alertness: +2 to listen and spot
b. Stealth: +2 to hide and move silently
c. Mechanical Aptitude: +2 to open locks and disable device
d. Fast Talker: +2 to bluff and diplomacy

At first level, (b). For a higher-level build, or for a third-level feat choice, (e) Skill Focus in Use Magic Device. (Assuming the +3 version of skill focus is in use, otherwise find a +2/+2 feat with UMD in it).

 

[Technik4]

Re: Jay Omega's Usefulness

I think youre right on many accounts, but not all. Listen OR Spot is very very important to a rogue. If you are surprised you still retain your dex, etc, however since the enemy is acting BEFORE you, there is no chance of getting a round 1 sneak attack, which is a pretty signature rogue thing to do. Thus, you may as well not bother with improved initiative.

While gather information and diplomacy can be roleplayed, in most 3e modules there are certain DCs that must be beat for info. Also, you appear to count on a paladin or bard, neither of which have been common in my games (which doesn't mean squat, just that it seems weird to me).

I also think you under-rate Escape Artist, imo, it almost makes the top 8 (right after Use Magic Device, on the power route) as a rogue getting grappled or tied up is usually a dead or hand-less rogue thereafter.

You left jump out completely, but I imagine you'd say "see climb". While this is mostly true, jumping can be invaluable (and very inexpensive at low levels, see Ring of Jumping) and provides good synergy with tumble.

Sense Motive is also a good skill that doesnt get a lot of play. You can't just whip out a scroll of detect thoughts when a noble is interrogtating you (or vice versa) and you certainly can get expected to have a detect magic cast in your area if the noble is important. In either case, sense motive reveals their true nature non-magically.

Technik