Elemental Hero' Handbook

Generic classes would certainly be interesting, but that's unlikely to be how D&D ever works due to its legacy, so I don't find it a hugely productive area of conversation.

Risking a new can o worms is the idea that 5e is comeing someday... And maybe we could have martial powers, Arcane powers ect then have defender powers and striker powers ect. Then still have classes, so fighter has fighter features, a theme power, fighter at wills then for encounter/daily/utlitie his choice of defender martial or fighter or theme powers...

Then a swordmage has arcan, defender and theme powers to choose from too...


That way 3 years into 5e we intro a new class that is an arcane leader... And out the gate he has all of these choices
 

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There's a very confusing version of "new classes" being used here. The seeker and runepriest are not the only new classes in the game.

Aside from the Vampire, they are the most recent, and they both are the most egregious offenders of the "Does this really need to be a class?" test.

Invoker? Sure, I can see a more "cloistered cleric" as a functional class, that doesn't rely so much on melee and armor. Could be done without it, maybe, but you might not gain much. Battlemind? Ardent? Eh...weaker. Do you really need a Battlemind when you can just have a psionic Fighter build? Maybe, maybe not.

Why you need 400 unique "Ranged Weapon Nature Themed Controller" powers when there's the Ranger and the Druid sitting right the heck there is a little less clear. The seeker doesn't do much that couldn't be done with a build of one or the other.

The number of powers or classes or feats or anything else in the compendium doesn't mean anything other than that people have been doing a lot of writing. If the game ended up with 1,000,000 choices, hey, AWESOME. Just so long as those choices aren't 95% garbage, and there's an easy and effective way to find the power you really want.

As you get more choices, it becomes harder to find things that aren't garbage (for your particular character concept), and harder to make an easy and effective way to find the one you really want. With the specificity of many powers, it becomes a "300 channels and nothing on!" kind of problem. More powers for more classes isn't going to fix that, it's just going to exacerbate it.

Generic classes would certainly be interesting, but that's unlikely to be how D&D ever works due to its legacy, so I don't find it a hugely productive area of conversation.

For certain values of "generic." I mean, you had three classes to begin with. The game as it stands now doesn't really need more than four. Classes are a great rules element, and they really help define your character, but you only get to pick one, and having 50 more that you never touch and never can touch doesn't do anything to help anyone. I don't think there's a specific target quantity, but there should be a specific target quality of classes, to justify the novella-length requirements of support that a unique class needs. Is this really a distinct concept that the current rules can't be tweaked to support? Is this really character-defining in a deep, archetypal way? Is it something more than 5 people will pick up and use after they see it? Is it worth 20 pages of rules to support? If there's twelve or two or fifty or five hundred of those, that's fine, as long as each one gets fully justified as a broadly useful thing to add to the game. The distinction between "Fighter" and "Paladin" and "Cleric" may be deep enough to require three separate classes. The division between "Fighter" and "Warlord" and "Battlemind" and "Warden" may not be. A class that just exists to "fill a gap" isn't an inherently useful class, any more than a monster or location or sourcebook that just exists to fill out a grid is a useful addition to the game.
 

So what classes are unique enough?

I see warden battlemind warlord swordmage all earned ther spot at the table...

But shaman and ardent seeker and invoker may be able to b e eaten by others


Runepriest avenger and artificer could be either way...
 

Next book title wanted: Heroes of the under-supported classes. Noew builds and powers for Seekers, Swordmages, Psions, Invokers, Runepriests, Artificers, Ardents and pretty much everything not in PHB1. ;)
 

Different classes use their powers in different ways which often are not applicable to other classes, so a generic pool of martial and magic powers isn't going to work without reducing variety in the game, which becomes rather self-defeating.

I can understand that a number of people have difficulty filtering through various options - they're the audience that the 10 Essentialss products were aimed at. However, if they have an issue with additional options, they basically have to stop purchasing anything other than fluff books, as every additional class book will add complexity, and WotC has little choice but to keep producing books.
 

Different classes use their powers in different ways which often are not applicable to other classes, so a generic pool of martial and magic powers isn't going to work without reducing variety in the game, which becomes rather self-defeating.

I can understand that a number of people have difficulty filtering through various options - they're the audience that the 10 Essentialss products were aimed at. However, if they have an issue with additional options, they basically have to stop purchasing anything other than fluff books, as every additional class book will add complexity, and WotC has little choice but to keep producing books.

I have to say that I'm definitively on KM's side of this question. There is a very definite cost to each extra game element which is added to the game. This cost is payed in a large number of different ways, some of which spring to mind are:

1) Increased development complexity, the new element needs to be assessed against the other existing game elements. As the number of elements it can interact with increases the complexity of this task increases as the square of the number of such elements.

2) Decreased focus, the development team has only so much manpower. There is some finite number of game elements they can adequately support.

3) Increased decision burden, players now have to filter through this long list of (at present) 1000's of elements which may be applicable to a specific choice point. It is all well and good to say "make a good way to filter them" but effectively you have to know they're out there to even look for.

4) Increased planning burden, in 4e you not only need to wade through the choices you are faced with AT THIS MOMENT, but you need to also understand how those choices impact all the other possible choices you're going to want to make with this character in the future. As the number of choices increases this becomes more and more difficult.

5) Added and often redundant page space, books only have so many pages. When class N requires basically recapitulating practically the same powers and feats as classes A, B, and C already had that's just more marginally useful or even wasted book space.

Honestly when I cracked open the PHB1 in 2008 and first went through it this was THE first flag that popped up in my brain was the failure to provide for any feasible way to share material between these extremely large heavy-weight class descriptions. I can't really comment on why the 4e devs felt this design was superior (or even adequate) in the long run, but experience seems to be bearing out that its costs are increasing steadily over time and threatening to collapse the system at this point. It is already close to reaching a point where additional support may be practically impossible and this is likely a large contributor to both the push to use subclasses in Essentials and the general slowdown in and decrease in quality of new support across the whole system.

What I see is that they have arrived at the same conclusions I've outlined above and their solution is to simply fall back to a small number of core classes which can share game elements going forward. They could have done this in other ways, but given the need for backwards compatibility the 'subclass solution' was a fairly reasonable compromise. I think they should stick to their guns. 4e at least may remain a viably supportable system for a few more years and then 5e can do a deeper rethink and restructuring to get all the way there.

I'm not entirely sure what the most ideal structure would be, but I AM sure it involves a vastly reduced list of powers overall. I'm taken back to the solution which worked well for casters in AD&D, particularly 2e, where there were only 2 spell lists. Any new class could draw on those 2 lists and/or extend them in various ways. I think perhaps it would make sense to have power source based lists which are then allocated in subsets to different archetypes to create classes. A fighter and a rogue can draw from the martial list. They may be allowed different subsets or get different riders/class feature interactions, etc to distinguish them, but fundamentally they'll be reusing a large part of the same game elements, as would warlords, rangers, barbarians, etc. There are many possible minor variations and tweaks that could be made to such a scheme, but in the long run it seems almost inevitable in light of our experience with 4e, IMHO.
 

While I agree that there is a limit, I disagree where that limit begins. I'm comfortable with the idea of a generic or source-based list of powers that any class or a group of classes or specific roles can pick up, but while there are redundant powers, they are hardly the entirity. There is certainly a need for organization to make picking things easier, but I disagree that simply halting significant development is an answer.

As for page space, 4E already has fairly thin books, so powers aren't realling eating up that much space so much as there's less and less space for them to fill. There is of course the issue of what can WotC sell other than new options.
 

So this is my latest example of why the elemental power source is not only worthy of being its own thing, but can open up some seriously new play styles. I give you, the Exulter. A controller inspired by the classic evil overlord magic-user in plate mail.
 

Just wondering how excited to get about it. One of my players is a fire mage, has Master of Flame paragon path. Am I right in guesing there's something in here for him?
 

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