Elemental Princes of Evil / Archomentals

[BOZ]

For the purposes of the Age of Worms Adventure Path, I'm pretty much assuming that the Queen of Chaos and the war against the Wind Dukes happens before the Blood War. I doubt I will ever get into it in enough detail to even mention that chronology, but it is my operating assumption and I've seen nothing in this thread to convince me I should tie it to the Blood War.

I likewise think that the only reason the Queen of Chaos is tanar'ri is that _everything_ was tanar'ri at the time of the Rod of Seven Parts boxed set. I therefore consider this open to interpretation. She is undoubtedly evil, and undoubtedly a demon, but I prefer to imagine her as one of the last remnants from an "Age Before Ages," a tentacled matriarch of a demonic line that is now all but extinct.

good call.

 

[BOZ]

Orcus and other humanoid Devils/Demons are probably only as old as mankind.

i think it was Dead Gods that showed orcus as a human cleric (or merchant?) that died, rose through the already-established demon ranks, and became what he is.

 

[Phoenix]

My work in Green Ronin's "Armies of the Abyss" is not canonical in terms of core D&D, of course, but I do like the idea of pre-tanar'ri proto-demons who are perhaps a touch more Lovecraftian. In "Armies" we called them "qlippoth," which is an esoteric term associated with "hollow ones" in the magical tradition of the real world. Again, I don't mention the word qlippoth in Dungeon, but that's basically my intent and you can read between the lines if you wish.

Another D&D nerd question:

1. Assuming you use the Blood War and essentially the "ancient" history of the D&D multiverse, how old does that make the war between Law and Chaos? My temptation is to say "several thousand years" (probably tens of thousands), but then we've also got dinosaurs, and my temptation there is to imagine that the "world" of D&D (Oerth, for my purposes) is thus millions of years old, just like Earth. How do you guys square the apparent contradiction? Or has the Blood War been going on for millions of years? Are folks like Orcus and Demogorgon millions of years old? Really? Isn't that a bit lame?

Following the Lovecraftian theory you could easily assume that pre-dinosaur pre-elemental kingdom (etc) Oerth was a playground for the 'qlippoth' (or elder demonic forces) much like in the Mythos. Having them locked away (Tharizdun style?) or defeated by their own spawn (the new demons, very Elder Thing like) and giving Oerth the chance to prosper into a new ecological system may easily fill the void of pre- pre- history...

 

[Gez]

IIRC, in AotA, the Qlippoths are defeated by celestials, and then the newly-made Tanar'ri opportunisticly uprise against their former masters.

 

[Alzrius]

i think it was Dead Gods that showed orcus as a human cleric (or merchant?) that died, rose through the already-established demon ranks, and became what he is.

It just says his human form is in the robes of a spellcaster, IIRC.

 

[BOZ]

true, you'd draw your own conclusion about what class he had, if any.

 

[Arnwyn]

Another D&D nerd question:

1. Assuming you use the Blood War and essentially the "ancient" history of the D&D multiverse, how old does that make the war between Law and Chaos? My temptation is to say "several thousand years" (probably tens of thousands), but then we've also got dinosaurs, and my temptation there is to imagine that the "world" of D&D (Oerth, for my purposes) is thus millions of years old, just like Earth. How do you guys square the apparent contradiction? Or has the Blood War been going on for millions of years? Are folks like Orcus and Demogorgon millions of years old? Really? Isn't that a bit lame?

Exactly vice-versa, for me. When talking about the multiverse, beings that are essential evil incarnate, and the freakin' Outer Planes, "several thousand years" is what's lame, IMO. When you have piddly Prime worlds (e.g. Oerth) that has recorded history going "several thousand years", that sure won't cut it for the Outer Planes of existence. (Not to even mention the now-removed FR campaign, that previously was tied to the Outer Planes, and had 30,000+ years of recorded history, beyond the hundreds of thousands of years of pre-history...)

In my mind and my readings (yeah, all the PS and planar-related material), "millions of years" is how I've always seen it.

I guess I just don't see the problem with having the ancient history of the D&D universe being, well, ancient.

Bingo.

Aside:

Statwise, Complete Arcane has the Elemental Monoliths, that appear to be a 3.5 conversion of Monte's Imix (and the equivalent of the other princes) from RTTOE.

They sounded like Al-Qadim's Elemental Monoliths to me...

 

[Shade]

Statwise, Complete Arcane has the Elemental Monoliths, that appear to be a 3.5 conversion of Monte's Imix (and the equivalent of the other princes) from RTTOE.

They sounded like Al-Qadim's Elemental Monoliths to me...

Statwise, they were close to Imix in RTTTOEE. However, I think that was more coincidence than anything. They actually are just a natural progression from elder elementals to Gargantuan size and greater HD.

Although they mention them being princes, they have none of the unique powers of the archomentals.

 

[BOZ]

woohoo archomentals!

i noticed that the RttToEE Imix had some significant flavor variations from the original version...

 

[The Serge]

Two questions, for the D&D nerds:

1. Is there anything specifically stating that the Law/Chaos war in which the Wind Dukes of Aaqa fought the forces of the Queen of Chaos _is_ the Blood War? My problem with this is that the defeat of Miska the Wolf-Spider is supposed to put an end to this conflict, and the Blood War is certain not "over."

No, there's nothing stating as much. Furthermore, the problem with the Law/Chaos war, IMO, has always been that it is more of a LN vs. CE war as the Queen of Chaos and Miska the Wolf-Spider are both CE and essentially demons.

I'm not certain if this war was ever reconciled with The Blood War. I don't recall this war as ever being referenced in Planescape material and, since I returned 2ed's Rod of Seven Parts about a week after I purchased it disgust (and surprise since I've historically liked William's material), I don't recall if The Blood War is mentioned either.

2. Is there a way that the war between Law and Chaos in which the Wind Dukes vanquished Miska happened _before_ the Blood War?

There's something gnawing in the back of my mind that this may have been the case... At least as far as non-PS lore goes. I do know that Hellbound: The Blood War does not mention this conflict at all... Nor does Faces of Evil: The Fiends.

BTW: When will we see another installment of the Demonomicon in DRAGON? I don't think we've seen anything since Pazuzu.