Elements of Magic Balance Issues

[gokhank]

We are planning to try Elements of Magic Rev. magic system in an upcoming campaign and I would like to hear your comments about it.

Especially, seeing the bonuses given by the different abjuration spell list stacks easily, together with use of ınfuse force on a weapon (giving it hefty hit and damage bonuses) confirmed my suspicions about system's over all balance. Seems, it is more than a possibility to create a wizard, who can fight more effectively than any warrior class at level 4 and beyond.

This was only an example, and I would like to hear more about your opinions.

Anyway, if a discussion like this already has done before under a previous thread, I kindly ask form anyone who cares to direct me there.

Thanks in advance

(sorry about my English, its not my native language, as you already guess )

 

[John Q. Mayhem]

The thing with the stacking abjurations is that you either have to a) use several turns to do it, or b) combine them into one big spell. The first option is kind of self-limiting, and the second requires you to be high enough level that you probably have better options available. Keep in mind that EoM[R] spells usually have a much shorter duration than core spells; if the PCs opponents have Spellcraft and can ID the spells they cast, they might just melt away for a little while...Hit and run is definately an effective tactic against EoM[R] spellcasters.

 

[dekrass]

You have good combat abilities all the time as a fighter, and for a few rounds with a mage.
To equal a fighter (temporarily) you need infuse nature for HP, infuse force for attacks, and at least one abjure for AC. That means either three rounds of casting or a lot of MP in one shot. The fighter always has these benefits plus feats. I use the fighter as a simple example, it works the same with other warrioir classes.

 

[Verequus]

Especially, seeing the bonuses given by the different abjuration spell list stacks easily, together with use of ınfuse force on a weapon (giving it hefty hit and damage bonuses) confirmed my suspicions about system's over all balance. Seems, it is more than a possibility to create a wizard, who can fight more effectively than any warrior class at level 4 and beyond.

What Abjure options do you mean exactly? Abjure Force and Nature for a better AC? This equals with two 20 MP spells in a +19 for 10 minutes - casting them as signature spells before 20th level is only possibly, if you spend two feats on that. Ritual casting takes too long - except maybe (I haven't looked that up) with the Signature Ritual feat, but this costs again 2 feats, so it isn't likely that this situation happens. For being (partially) as good as fighter in defense you have paid then 40 MP and two rounds (probably you would cast an Infuse Time spell before that for having two rounds at once, but this costs still one round and 20 MP), being it an sound option for a 20th-level-character. The mage could have spent already 60 MP in doing direct damage, so I don't see it as unbalancing.

 

[MatrexsVigil]

I don't mean to hijack your thread, but I've been playing with the EOM rules (and I love them!), but I can't find in the book if cantrips have a two round casting time like other basic spells if non-signature or not.

Sorry and thanks to whoever answers me!

-P.C.

 

[dekrass]

I don't mean to hijack your thread, but I've been playing with the EOM rules (and I love them!), but I can't find in the book if cantrips have a two round casting time like other basic spells if non-signature or not.

Sorry and thanks to whoever answers me!

-P.C.

My assumption, since it isn't specifically stated in the book, is they are cast as other spells.

 

[Verequus]

I'm following dekrass. In the rules are only signature spells or spells form spell lists with Improved Signature Spell castable with a standard action. Because a signature spell can be any castable spell, cantrips are included. It is that simple.

 

[gokhank]

RuleMaster;

Yes, I was referring to abjure nature and abjure force spell lists as you stated. But in my opinion, since the benefits/bonuses you get from abjure spells decreases dramatically at higher levels, looking it at 20th level is not a good example for the consideration of over all system balance.

Let me try a different approach then; what do you think in the case the spell's target is not the mage himself but another fighter at the party. Even at 5th level a mage can give the subject fighter +5 AC with abjure nature and additional +3 with abjure force with 10 min duration on top of his armor (usually a plate at that level). I don't know but it sounds a little high at level 5 (at least from the point of DM, hehhe... ).

Correct me if I am wrong but you do not need several turns to cast them, cause rule says "every spellcaster can have a number of signature spells equal to her caster level plus her intelligence modifier (if any)". Therefore, you need to cast only 2 signature spells, each as a standart action before any combat.

Anyway, as I already say, this was only an example came to my mind when I first read the EoM(R).

I thank you for your replies and I do appreciate more of your opinions on different areas of the system for balance issues.

 

[Verequus]

Let me try a different approach then; what do you think in the case the spell's target is not the mage himself but another fighter at the party. Even at 5th level a mage can give the subject fighter +5 AC with abjure nature and additional +3 with abjure force with 10 min duration on top of his armor (usually a plate at that level). I don't know but it sounds a little high at level 5 (at least from the point of DM, hehhe...

).

I'm asssuming, that a plate is the full-plate and not the half-plate, which results in +8 armor bonus. I'll assume Dodge (without being conditional for simplicity) and Dex 13+, so we have an unenhanced AC of 20. Two spells in two rounds make that to an AC of 28. Monsters with 5 HD and some strength bonus have practically a hit chance of 5%. Granted, that doesn't make those monsters CR 5, but the fighter is more or less invinceable.

To the wizard: He has only 35 MP and he uses 10 MP for the AC-spells - two-seventh (~30%) of his daily allotment. Then he can use up his left MP with other spells - or improves other PCs. Considering, that there could be more battles per day with enough time between them, that the spells have to be renewed (under control of the DM), we have A) one time a superb character with an normal party, B) one time several superb characters with an crappy character and C) several times a superb character, a crappy character (the wizard, who can only use his crossbow because he has to save his MP), and the rest is normal.

A) and C) falls "Have them fun for a while - the bad comes afterwards" or is simply wearing them out of their resources. B) results in severe crippling of one character for improving of another character, so it balances it out. Which player would do that anyway? Only a cohort, which is a bit beyound of scope, because of the not so solvable question: "Who controls the cohort?"

That above assumes of course, that the mage has time to prepare the spells - ambushes are still effective as otherwise.

Correct me if I am wrong but you do not need several turns to cast them, cause rule says "every spellcaster can have a number of signature spells equal to her caster level plus her intelligence modifier (if any)". Therefore, you need to cast only 2 signature spells, each as a standart action before any combat.

Turns were used in the meaning of rounds, so the original poster is still correct. And even round can decide the course of the battle, so choosing the "Buff' me up"-way could be the TPK-way in some (<-unknown probabilty) instances.

 

[gokhank]

As far as I understand you are already using this system and that means you are several steps ahead of me, so I respect your judgment. Maybe I would bring on more for discussion after couple of sessions. Thanks everyone for your time and replies.