Elephants and Horses climbing ladders?

[harpy]

So this came up last night in a Pathfinder Society game. An elephant trying to climb down a ladder. I've seen this issue before with horses and other creatures that you normally wouldn't expect to be able to do any climbing.

At the table various arguments were laid out:

Simulationist Argument

Climbing ladders needs a certain amount of anatomical features to be successful. You can't expect a horse to be able to climb a ladder. Perhaps a harness and rope system could be devised to lower the animal down, but in this instance the climb skill for the creature can't be used, or it needs to have a large negative modifier.

RAW (Rules as Written)

Nothing in the RAW seems to exclude certain creatures from climbing due to anatomy. The game is written with the assumption that humanoids are going to be using the skills most of the time, but it stays pretty abstract so that it can apply to any creature.

Gamist Argument

RAW arguments are quite often fit neatly into a gamist zone, but this is a further gamist extension. Animal companions are class features and so having barriers that prevent these animals from being able to continue with the party undermines the assumptions of the class balance.

In addition, the nature of Pathfinder Society games, with their limited time slots, means that if a more common sense approach is used there is little time for problem solving to try and find another way for the companion to join the party. The gamist structure of PFS, with its limited game time, which then injects simulationist expectations of resolution (an open ended time frame) can really hamper the class feature.

Thoughts?

 

[freyar]

Well, I've never participated in organized play (my player's can testify to that! ), so I can't talk about implications for Pathfinder Society games. But in my game, I think I'd slap on a big old circumstance penalty for "squeezing" or some such thing. I believe DM adjudication is part of RAW, too.

 

[amethal]

I'd go with the common sense approach, but I've never run an organised game.

One of the drawbacks of certain animal companions is that they won't be appropriate for all situations. If you don't know what you are getting into, pick a flexible companion or risk the consequences.

Or to put it another way, if my fighter can't sleep in his platemail so as to be fully equipped against a night attack, I don't see why your elephant should be allowed to climb ladders.

 

[RangerWickett]

I seen a horse fly. I even seen a dragon fly. But I ain't never seen an elephant fly.

I did, however, once have a ranger with a warhorse animal companion who sadly would not fit in the canoes we needed to take during one leg of the Red Hand of Doom.

 

[Alaxk Knight of Galt]

Common Sense has to rule the day at some point. I'm 30 and I've never seen an Elephant climb a ladder or a horse use a hammer and piton to scale a cliff. Perhaps someone can link a youtube video of this

Besides, Wizards need some use (levitate that horse!).

 

[Jhaelen]

I remember this discussion regarding centaur pcs... It's a DM's call. Though I consider myself a gamist, I wouldn't allow it.

 

[Burn_Boy]

Hannibal could barely make it through mountains with elephants so unless you have a huge mother of a ladder I think that elephant isn't going to be joining you for this part of the quest.

I ran into a similar situation a few sessions ago. My players had to trek into this demon infested city which had a massive wall around it to keep the demons in. Our monk hopped up on the seventy foot wall (fracking monks) and hoisted everyone else up with some rope and then they headed onwards, only to notice, about a session and a half later that they still had their horses after specifically stating they had left them behind. Everyone at the table looked at me and once I got over the shock of feeling like I was caught with my hand in the cookie jar I simply said "Wizard did it." and we all laughed and then proceeded to beat the snot out of a couple dozen skeletons.

If you don't want the cheap "Wizard did it" excuse then I suggest building a ramp or something, unless time is of the essence.

 

[frankthedm]

For 3.5, this was expressly stated though somewhat buried.

Natural Tendencies

Some creatures simply aren’t made for certain types of physical activity. If it seems clear that a particular creature simply is not made for a particular physical activity, that creature takes a -8 penalty on skill checks that defy its natural tendencies.

In extreme circumstances the creature fails the check automatically.

I'd say Hell No.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Two mechanical issues:

1) Can the ladder support the animal? Very few ladders are going to be strong enough for an elephant. Most will be marginal at best even with a horse.

2) To climb a ladder you must either grip the ladder (something no horse or elephant can do) or you must keep your center of gravity within the polygon defined by a rubber band around the edges of your points of contact with the ladder. (It's not just a simple foot-foot-hand or foot-hand-hand as the contact area in each case is a rectangle, not a point.) If the ladder is steep I do not believe it's going to be possible for the animal to meet this criteria. (Note that the animals with good climbing ability have hands that can grip!)

In almost all cases these criteria will preclude the use of a ladder. If it's shallow enough for the animal to go up it's probably stairs, not a ladder. (Although it would be possible for a party to rig up a shallow ladder. Making it strong enough, though....)

 

[Jhaelen]

For 3.5, this was expressly stated though somewhat buried.

Ah, good find!