D&D 5E Elf-Orc Grugach

In an other thread, @Bacon Bits supplies an excellent description for an Orc culture. Here it works well for the apparent Orc ancestry of the Grugach.

Orcs in D&D are human-sized green-skinned humanoids that tend to live in nations, tribes, or clans in the wilderness. Like elves, they prefer nature, and want the world to be covered in forests and wildernesses teeming with life. They generally oppose the kind of organized civilization that humans bring. They see little value in building permanent walled cities, building cultivated fields for farmland, roads, etc. Humans invade a region and tame it to their will. Orcs are much more interested in being the alpha predators of their region, and living with what is there instead of changing it to suit them. Orcs hunt wild game, fish in rivers and lakes, tend groves of wild vegetables, and are famed for producing some of the strongest and most intoxicating liquors and wines. They often hold celebrations that feature games of athleticism or acrobatics or martial skill. Orc martial prowess is legendary in most parts of the world, with some of the greatest [weaponmasters] known being orcs.

Most orcs will band together to face a common threat, making orcs powerful allies and deadly foes. Orcish hordes and war bands are legendary for their ferocity and tenacity, and many an army has fled the field before facing a charge from orcs. Some orcs are more hateful than their brethren, and reject the notions of peaceful existence, instead adopting the bloodthirstly ways of Gruumsh, an old, evil god of the orcs with a particular dislike for humans, elves, and dwarves. These "lost" orcs may form war bands or hordes intent on looting cities and towns or killing other creatures they see as harming or invading the lands the orcs call home. Most orcs find such behavior distasteful, and reject the teachings of Gruumsh as self-defeating and pointlessly destructive. Unfortunately, because most orcs are disinclined to visit the cities of other races, the memory of these war bands has left a poor impression of orcs on many human nations.

As a people, orcs are known for being passionate, proud, athletic, brave, and willing to act decisively and promptly. Orcs may also be brash, arrogant, or short-sighted. They are fiercely loyal to their clan, family, or code, whether that's their own by birth or an adoptive one. They are also known for being unwilling to let go of a grudge, an unfortunate failing they share with both elves and dwarves. In some areas orc feuds with elves or dwarves have lasted centuries, long past when even their longer-lived neighbors can remember the cause. Play an orc if you want to be quick to laugh, good in a fight, and a strong and loyal friend.

In following with their Orcs tend to be chaotic, much like elves. They live much shorter lives, of course, and so they are not patient or aloof in the ways elves are. Most Orcish settlements tend to appear smaller and blend in with their surroundings. Orc settlements are also often semi-permanent, as they may migrate or travel throughout the year to find better hunting. Though in war they are known for building large forest fortresses and palisades for protection when necessary, orcs like to use the natural geography to protect themselves.
 

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Litle Red Goblings created their own hybrid, the fair orcs.

  • Ability Score Racial Traits: Fair orcs are strong and highly intelligent. They gain +2 Strength and +2 Intelligence.
  • Size: Fair orcs are Medium creatures and have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
  • Type: Fair orcs are humanoid creatures with both the elf and orc subtypes.
  • Mixed Blood: Fair orcs count as both elves and orcs for any effect related to race.
  • Base Speed: Fair orcs have a base speed of 30 feet.
  • Keen Senses: Fair orcs receive a +2 racial bonus on Perception checks.
  • Orc Ferocity: Once per day, when fair orcs are brought below 0 hit points but not killed, they can fight on for 1 more round as if disabled. At the end of their next turn, unless brought to or above 0 hit points, they immediately fall unconscious and begin dying.
  • Languages: Fair orcs begin play speaking Elven or Orc. Fair orcs with high Intelligence scores can choose from any language (other than secret languages, such as Druidic).
 

And the point of the Elf-Orc Grugach is to return the 1e Grugach plausibly.

There are tons of other ways to do this, but if you want to do it with orcs, have at it. ;)

Personally, I would just make them what they were in the first place--a branch of elf, no orc needed.
 

Personally, I would just make them what they were in the first place -- a branch of elf, no orc needed.
An earlier 5e Unearhed Arcana offered a Grugach that was simply a "branch of elf". But it failed to receive enough support. So while Mordenkainens did go ahead with Eladrin, Sea Elf, and Shadar-Kai, it left the Grugach behind.

It is hard to say which problem was most objectionable. Problems included.

• The current 5e Elf format forced too rigidly that every elf MUST have Dex +2, regardless of whether this concept makes sense or not. Relatedly, the subrace design space for the 5e elf offers less room to flesh out a potent concept.

• The UA Grugach was Dex +2 and Str +1. So the resulting UA Grugach failed to feel like an elf with exceptional Strength. The concept fell flat.

• The old school Wood Elf is a Strength elf, and even the 3e Wood Elf is, and the old school Grugach is even stronger. Nevertheless this concept of a strong elf seems out of favor within the D&D community. There even seems to be resistance against any elf having extreme Strength. Perhaps the D&D elf concept has become so inherently androgynous? So characteristics of hyper masculinity including Strength feel less acceptable now?

Perhaps there are other objections to the UA Grugach as well.



The Elf-Orc Grugach happens to address these concerns.

• Where the 5e elf format is too inflexible and defacto too uncustomizable, the introduction of Elf-Orc breaks out of the elf design space, similar to how the 5e Elf-Human breaks out of the elf design space.

• Strength +2 becomes appropriate for the design for the concept.

• The D&D community allows the Orc to be hyper masculine, and expects the Orc to exhibit extreme Strength. So Orc parentage of the Elf-Orc gains "permission" from the D&D community, for this elf concept to exhibit extreme Strength.


Moreover, the "savage" aspect of the Orc culture feels appropriate for the Grugach culture as well.
 

The Elf-Orc Grugach happens to address these concerns.

{snip}

• Strength +2 becomes appropriate for the design for the concept.
As would any other of a number of races (there are several who get STR +2). I think a Goliath-Elf would probably fit even better given the powerful build feature and personality of Goliaths.

FWIW, a lot of groups also simply get rid of racial ability score modifiers, granting a +2 to one and +1 to another as the player sees fit. So, while Grugach as a whole might be stronger, such a player might want a hyper-intelligent and charismatic one. Removing these ties also helps remove player tendencies to pick races most "suitable" for their desired class (oh, look, another Tiefling warlock... yawn).

But, you don't need to try to convince me, it will never happen. Any orc-elf crossbreed in my game will follow the traditional concept: half-orc or simply just "orc". It is the established method in the MM and from prior editions of D&D. Anyway, from the beginning, I just didn't understand why you choose orc (of all the options...) to represent the heritage of Grugach since there really isn't any precedence for it. Obviously, you simply want orc and it makes sense to you, so have at it and enjoy! :)
 

Litle Red Goblings created their own hybrid, the fair orcs.

  • Ability Score Racial Traits: Fair orcs are strong and highly intelligent. They gain +2 Strength and +2 Intelligence.
  • Size: Fair orcs are Medium creatures and have no bonuses or penalties due to their size.
  • Type: Fair orcs are humanoid creatures with both the elf and orc subtypes.
  • Mixed Blood: Fair orcs count as both elves and orcs for any effect related to race.
  • Base Speed: Fair orcs have a base speed of 30 feet.
  • Keen Senses: Fair orcs receive a +2 racial bonus on Perception checks.
  • Orc Ferocity: Once per day, when fair orcs are brought below 0 hit points but not killed, they can fight on for 1 more round as if disabled. At the end of their next turn, unless brought to or above 0 hit points, they immediately fall unconscious and begin dying.
  • Languages: Fair orcs begin play speaking Elven or Orc. Fair orcs with high Intelligence scores can choose from any language (other than secret languages, such as Druidic).

I like the concept of intelligent elf. I feel the Sun Elf concept needs to be Charisma +2, Intelligence +2. Cha for art and persuasion. Int for magic, magical technology, history, and lore. I miss the 4e Eladrin Cha +2, Int +2, and continue to yearn for it in 5e.

So a Str +2, Int +2 Orc-Elf can work well.

When I look at the concept, I am less sure how "Orc Ferocity" relates to Intelligence +2. It probably can work, maybe a kind of intellectual fanaticism? But I want more explanation for the concept as a whole to gel. I feel Perception should be an Intelligence skill anyway, so I am fine with that!
 

As would any other of a number of races (there are several who get STR +2). I think a Goliath-Elf would probably fit even better given the powerful build feature and personality of Goliaths.

FWIW, a lot of groups also simply get rid of racial ability score modifiers, granting a +2 to one and +1 to another as the player sees fit. So, while Grugach as a whole might be stronger, such a player might want a hyper-intelligent and charismatic one. Removing these ties also helps remove player tendencies to pick races most "suitable" for their desired class (oh, look, another Tiefling warlock... yawn).

But, you don't need to try to convince me, it will never happen. Any orc-elf crossbreed in my game will follow the traditional concept: half-orc or simply just "orc". It is the established method in the MM and from prior editions of D&D. Anyway, from the beginning, I just didn't understand why you choose orc (of all the options...) to represent the heritage of Grugach since there really isn't any precedence for it. Obviously, you simply want orc and it makes sense to you, so have at it and enjoy! :)
For me, Goliath feels moreso "gentle giant". Such parentage would explain less well the "savagery" of the Grugach. It also explains less well the size of the Grugach, who can be quite short.

Partial Orc parentage can explain those Grugach who are short, 4 feet tall. The Orc matures rapidly, becoming adult at the age of 14, if I recall correctly. Thus with partial Elf parentage who mature physically at the same rate as Human, some Grugach stop growing around age 14, before they can reach their full potential height. Oppositely, many Grugach clans do reach full Orc stature as adults while inheriting an elven maturation rate. But on average, their heights tend to be near Human. There are clans whose members are short, but clans whose members are tall are also possible. Thus they use the same height table as the Eladrin who likewise can be very short or very tall, relative to Human.

Your assumption that an Elf-Orc is "traditionally" the same thing as a Human-Orc, is incorrect. You can do that if you want, of course. Heh, but you are imagining rules that arent there.

Regarding the abilities. I appreciate how the abilities describe "aptitudes", kinds of things generally that a person will tend to be good at. I find this realistic. At the same time, I strongly want to see more customizability for the sake of actual concepts. I find it less enjoyable and less relatable, that every elf MUST have Dexterity +2. That Dex elf is rarely MY experience of elf concepts. In my experience, from reallife folklore in my own ethnicity, the elf concept is Charisma above all else. The Dex elf feels like someone else trying to impose their ethnicity on me. More official customizability would increase my own enjoyment of D&D alot.
 
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For me, Goliath feels moreso "gentle giant". Such parentage would explain less well the "savagery" of the Grugach.
For me, the Firbolg is the "gentle giant", not the Goliath as they are very competitive.

Your assumption that an Elf-Orc is "traditionally" the same thing as a Human-Orc, is incorrect. You can do that if you want, of course. Heh, but you are imagining rules that arent there.
No, it is correct. I'll cite you just from the 5E MM, p. 245:

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Notice, it says "such as" a human or dwarf, not exclusively. All PC races (AFAIK) are medium in size, so as I said Goliath would fit. Also, note it says "the resulting child is either an orc or a half-orc." They don't have crossbreeds for orcs and every possible combination.

So, the rules are "quite there" but perhaps you missed them?

Regarding the abilities. I appreciate how the abilities describe "aptitudes", kinds of things generally that a person will tend to be good at. I find this realistic. At the same time, I strongly want to see more customizability for the sake of actual concepts. I find it less enjoyable and less relatable, that every elf MUST have Dexterity +2. That Dex elf is rarely MY experience of elf concepts. In my experience, from reallife folklore in my own ethnicity, the elf concept is Charisma above all else. The Dex elf feels like someone else trying to impose their ethnicity on me. More official customizability would increase my own enjoyment of D&D alot.

Or, just drop defined racial ability score modifiers, as I suggested, and put them where you want. You want a +1 STR, +2 CHA elf? Knock yourself out and just play one.

Seriously, I am at the point I really don't get why you keep trying to justify this against my views? There is nothing wrong in any way with what you are doing, it is just stuff I would never do. As I have already said, have at it and enjoy! :)
 

For me, the Firbolg is the "gentle giant", not the Goliath as they are very competitive.


No, it is correct. I'll cite you just from the 5E MM, p. 245:

View attachment 123926

Notice, it says "such as" a human or dwarf, not exclusively. All PC races (AFAIK) are medium in size, so as I said Goliath would fit. Also, note it says "the resulting child is either an orc or a half-orc." They don't have crossbreeds for orcs and every possible combination.

So, the rules are "quite there" but perhaps you missed them?



Or, just drop defined racial ability score modifiers, as I suggested, and put them where you want. You want a +1 STR, +2 CHA elf? Knock yourself out and just play one.

Seriously, I am at the point I really don't get why you keep trying to justify this against my views? There is nothing wrong in any way with what you are doing, it is just stuff I would never do. As I have already said, have at it and enjoy! :)
The text explicitly mentions "Human-Orc" and "Dwarf-Orc". But the text itself implies the "Elf-Orc" is impossible, since the Orc faction believes Luthic is the wife of Gruumsh who kills elves and apparently kills such unions. Thus this text, on balance, cannot mean an Elf-Orc. The stats for the Elf-Orc remain a desideratum within official 5e rules.

Moreover, the same Gruumsh-faction text explicitly says, that the Orc-Ogre isnt a Half-Orc. So there are different kinds of Orc hybrids with different kinds of statblocks depending on different kinds of parentage.

The Elf-Orc remains unlike the Human-Orc and the Dwarf-Orc.
 
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