I just got the ELH and have been looking through it. Most of the monsters have hundreds of hit points and enemies of CR 30+ are often in 4 digits. Thus, no party can expect to defeat them very quickly. In this case, the Heal spell becomes amazingly valuable for the monsters. The Red Dragon in the adventure has 1450 HP and the damage that it takes from the Egg would mean very little if it actually knew the Heal spell (which for some reason it doesn't). The only real "easy" way to take down a creature that could cast Heal would be to use Harm on it. Also, Heavily Fortified Armor prevents ridiculous Vorpal/Sneak Attack/Deepwood Sniper combos. The Greater Mantle of Spell Resistance also seems far too cheap. Should it be SR 30 instead of SR 40 (for 290,000 gp)? I missed the big ELH thread, so sory if someone else already posted any of this. Thanks for the help!
ELH: Any limits to the Heal spell?
- Thread starter Elric
- Start date
SeRiAlExPeRiMeNtS
Explorer
IMC I use 1d8 / level (max 20d8) damage for the harm spell, I tihnk I will use 1d8/level cure for heal to....
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Hammerhead
Explorer
The spell resistance item seems messed up. It looks like they work the Epic x10 cost factor. 290k seems way too cheap for an item that offers such extreme protection against spell casters. That item would be an especially good buy at 20th level, because most spells, even backed up by Greater Spell Penetration, would bounce off.
290k for the SR 40 Mantle also seems to invalidate one of the best features of the Monk.
I think just about everyone will be using Heal and its big brother quite often at epic levels.
290k for the SR 40 Mantle also seems to invalidate one of the best features of the Monk.
I think just about everyone will be using Heal and its big brother quite often at epic levels.
Cloudgatherer
First Post
Re Spell Resistance: They forgot a "0", the price should really be 2.9 Million GP, not 290K.
Re Heal/Harm: This has been around long before the ELH. While the book addresses spells such as Time Stop and Wish, it does not address Heal/Harm (that I've seen). Honestly, I don't see much of a problem with it. There are so many "save or die" type effects, a spell that heals all your hitpoints seems trivial in comparison (since save or die spells rarely take into account hitpoints).
Re Heavy Fortification: Again, an issue that has been around long before the ELH. Sneak attack + TWF, Improved Crit + keen, not to mention vorpal. I've felt the heavy fort was needed at high levels, long before the ELH came out.
Re Heal/Harm: This has been around long before the ELH. While the book addresses spells such as Time Stop and Wish, it does not address Heal/Harm (that I've seen). Honestly, I don't see much of a problem with it. There are so many "save or die" type effects, a spell that heals all your hitpoints seems trivial in comparison (since save or die spells rarely take into account hitpoints).
Re Heavy Fortification: Again, an issue that has been around long before the ELH. Sneak attack + TWF, Improved Crit + keen, not to mention vorpal. I've felt the heavy fort was needed at high levels, long before the ELH came out.
Jondor_Battlehammer
First Post
This is why my Cleric Jondor will be taking Spontaneous castin:Heal, as his first Epic feat.
When dealing with a system that is based on ever increasing gobs of HPs, (and we are, so no degrading into THAT argument...), even wizards get to the point where a Cure Crit. Wounds only gets them half way back. Heal/Harm are the logical progression of healing/damage dealing spells. In hind sight, they may have been better off as 7th or 8th level spells, but they are not. Continuing to grant healing spells that do a D8 per spell level + your level will not keep up with the HPs of anyone with a better than D6 HD and average CON. At the first couple of levels, a Cure Light could completly heal you. At 5th, a cure serious should do close to the same, but might not. Heal fills that ever widening gap.
I like them the way they are, especially since in Epic, alot of creatures have SR, and alot cast spells. The PCs will bump into these thing used against them often. As for the Epic dragon, since he can cast some divine spells as arcane, why not have him research an Epic Heal spell. He might only get one or two, but that should be all he needs.
If you really want to change them, but still keep them worthwhile,
Heal: 1D8 per level, + caster level.
Harm: A target cannot be reduced to less than one or two HP per level/HD.
When dealing with a system that is based on ever increasing gobs of HPs, (and we are, so no degrading into THAT argument...), even wizards get to the point where a Cure Crit. Wounds only gets them half way back. Heal/Harm are the logical progression of healing/damage dealing spells. In hind sight, they may have been better off as 7th or 8th level spells, but they are not. Continuing to grant healing spells that do a D8 per spell level + your level will not keep up with the HPs of anyone with a better than D6 HD and average CON. At the first couple of levels, a Cure Light could completly heal you. At 5th, a cure serious should do close to the same, but might not. Heal fills that ever widening gap.
I like them the way they are, especially since in Epic, alot of creatures have SR, and alot cast spells. The PCs will bump into these thing used against them often. As for the Epic dragon, since he can cast some divine spells as arcane, why not have him research an Epic Heal spell. He might only get one or two, but that should be all he needs.
If you really want to change them, but still keep them worthwhile,
Heal: 1D8 per level, + caster level.
Harm: A target cannot be reduced to less than one or two HP per level/HD.
Well, the Mantle of Spell Resistance isn't much of a problem at 2.9 million gold. Still, there are a lot of other problems related to spell resistance. Many enemies have SR 10-15 greater than their CR. Thus, anyone who does not stay a spellcaster at every level has no chance to penetrate spell resistance without the help of Spell Power (like the FR Archmage) or some other non-PH ability. The Pseudonatural template is even worse- a Pseudonatural creature has SR equal to its hit dice x5, giving a 16 Hit Dice creature the impossible to beat SR of 80.
Damage reduction is obscene- almost every creature in the book has it and most have it at +6 or greater weapons to penetrate. Penetrate Damage Reduction is an essential feat, and makes +6 weapons irrelevant until the enemies get +8 DR. Any character who is not primarily a fighter-type will not take this feat or have a +6 weapon for several levels into the 20s and will thus be completely useless in hand to hand combat. Anti-magic shell seems the way to go against creatures with DR and other supernatural abilities (or spells), except that magic items are the only way that PCs can hope to take on all of the size H-C creatures with way too high Str scores and hit dice. On the other hand, a Demilich can't do anything against an anti-magic field except to cast Mordenkain's Disjunction or to try to drop a boulder on you. You can even penetrate its ridiculous 30/- DR and do a measly 130 damage very quickly.
A bunch of creatures with tons of hit dice makes it completely obvious that doubling hit dice= +2 CR is a very bad formula. Adding one age category to an epic red dragon does not make it
twice as powerful as it was before. However, doubling the hit dice of a Phaethon makes for a mean opponent. I also don't see anything about how to make epic characters less magic item dependent. The sample NPCs don't have a prayer- in large part due to their ridiculously low amounts of gear. How about ways to increse stats without magic? Every epic NPC has their dump stat still at 8 (except the Paladin, who gets an item to boost his Dex once he gets to level 28).
Cloudgatherer- unless you are super-DC man, save DCs don't seem to increase fast enough to keep up with a monster's saves. Heavy Fortification negates entire parts of the game- criticals and sneak attacks. It takes a lot of the tactics and excitement out of combat. At least it gets rid of silly vorpal weapons...
Now that I'm looking through the book, a Pseudonatural Legendary Tiger would probably be the nastiest opponent imaginable. CR 20, SR 130, DR 50/+11, ten tentacle rakes, hundreds of HP...
Damage reduction is obscene- almost every creature in the book has it and most have it at +6 or greater weapons to penetrate. Penetrate Damage Reduction is an essential feat, and makes +6 weapons irrelevant until the enemies get +8 DR. Any character who is not primarily a fighter-type will not take this feat or have a +6 weapon for several levels into the 20s and will thus be completely useless in hand to hand combat. Anti-magic shell seems the way to go against creatures with DR and other supernatural abilities (or spells), except that magic items are the only way that PCs can hope to take on all of the size H-C creatures with way too high Str scores and hit dice. On the other hand, a Demilich can't do anything against an anti-magic field except to cast Mordenkain's Disjunction or to try to drop a boulder on you. You can even penetrate its ridiculous 30/- DR and do a measly 130 damage very quickly.
A bunch of creatures with tons of hit dice makes it completely obvious that doubling hit dice= +2 CR is a very bad formula. Adding one age category to an epic red dragon does not make it
twice as powerful as it was before. However, doubling the hit dice of a Phaethon makes for a mean opponent. I also don't see anything about how to make epic characters less magic item dependent. The sample NPCs don't have a prayer- in large part due to their ridiculously low amounts of gear. How about ways to increse stats without magic? Every epic NPC has their dump stat still at 8 (except the Paladin, who gets an item to boost his Dex once he gets to level 28).
Cloudgatherer- unless you are super-DC man, save DCs don't seem to increase fast enough to keep up with a monster's saves. Heavy Fortification negates entire parts of the game- criticals and sneak attacks. It takes a lot of the tactics and excitement out of combat. At least it gets rid of silly vorpal weapons...
Now that I'm looking through the book, a Pseudonatural Legendary Tiger would probably be the nastiest opponent imaginable. CR 20, SR 130, DR 50/+11, ten tentacle rakes, hundreds of HP...
Tzarevitch
First Post
Hejdun said:
That's because heal IS overpowered, as is harm.
Tzarevitch
Magus the Purifier
First Post
The Psuedonatural template is severely overpowered. That tiger could probably kill 23rd level characters. BTW Could you have a Paragon Psuedonatural creature?
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