Elven Accuracy + attack twice powers

[Caliban]

I disagree. That's the sequence for a single attack. Twin Strike says quite plainly in the power description that it's two attacks. You would follow that full sequence for the first attack, and after it's resolved start over from step 1 for the second attack.

It says choose "targets" in step 2.

Also:

Subject: Powers that allow one or more targets

Discussion Thread
Response (Support Agent) 10/13/2008 12:36 PM

Hi Caliban,

Thank you for contacting us. When using powers that allow you to target ne or more creatures, you must choose your targets before you make your first attack roll. You cannot wait to see if your first attack drops the target before choosing the target for the second attack.

I hope this information is useful. Please let me know if you need anymore help!

Good Gaming!

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Marc
Online Response Crew
Wizards of the Coast

Customer (Caliban) 10/13/2008 12:16 PM
If a power (such as the Ranger Twin Strike at-will) has a Target of "One or Two creatures", do you have to choose the number of targets before you make your attack roll?

Can you wait to see if your first attack drops the target before choosing the target for the second attack?
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Book Name: PHB

 

[DanmarLOK]

No DM I play with ever tells the players what the target's AC is.
-blarg

Seriously? It's not like it's all that hard to figure out, the first 3 or 4 attack rolls will narrow it down pretty substantially and by the time everyone's rolled once or twice it's down to "Okay a 15 hit and a 13 missed so..."

I'm known as a bit of a hard ass DM but that's one that I never bothered to hide from the players.

 

[Kordeth]

It says choose "targets" in step 2.

And there are powers that are a single attack with multiple targets, e.g. "up to three creatures in burst." Twin Strike is two separate attacks against two separate or one single attack.

Also:

Given how notoriously unreliable CS answers are, I don't really consider them definitive. But then, this whole debate is symptomatic of the fact that 4E never defines the term attack.

 

[amadeus-darkened]

I'm going to have to say the official answer to this debate is indeed exactly what Caliban pointed out earlier. Think about game balance. Let's say a wizard drops a scorching burst on a group he believes are minions, they turn out not to be, the wizard cannot redirect his attack with multiple targets. So for the sake of game balance, why would the ranger?

4e is all about game balance and very little about what most people would consider common sense. I find this answer to make just as much sense as adding the prone condition to a Gelatinous Gel myself. They both seem kinda off, but in the sake of game balance they make pretty good sense.

 

[Caliban]

And there are powers that are a single attack with multiple targets, e.g. "up to three creatures in burst." Twin Strike is two separate attacks against two separate or one single attack.

With a burst or blast attack you are still making a seperate attack rolls against each creature. Twin Strike is one power that let's you attack 2 creatures.

Given how notoriously unreliable CS answers are, I don't really consider them definitive. But then, this whole debate is symptomatic of the fact that 4E never defines the term attack.

*shrug* They are not nearly as "notoriously" unreliable as they once were. I wouldn't dismiss them just because you don't like the answer.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Twin Strike is two separate attacks against two separate or one single target.

But as well as being two separate attacks, it's also one melee (or ranged) attack.

PHB p270:
A melee attack against multiple enemies consists of separate attacks, each with its own attack roll and damage roll.

An attack consists of separate attacks.

-Hyp.

 

[NMcCoy]

But as well as being two separate attacks, it's also one melee (or ranged) attack.

PHB p270:
A melee attack against multiple enemies consists of separate attacks, each with its own attack roll and damage roll.

An attack consists of separate attacks.

-Hyp.

This, really, is the crux of this debate and many, many others. We need a terminology overhaul in a few sections of the rules, to clearly distinguish between "using an attack power" and "making an attack roll", which currently both get called "making an attack" or "attacking" in the rules. Clear up all this silliness with "A missed attack never damages a minion" by instead saying "Minions don't take damage from Miss effects."

Likewise: "Make a basic melee attack" means "use a basic melee attack power", but "make a secondary attack" means "make another attack roll as part of using this power". We really have three different things that use the word "attack", as I see it. Here's the breakdown, color coded for your convenience:

• An Attack Power usually, but not always, involves making one or more Attacks. (Some Attack Powers, such as Armor of Agathys, do not involve making Attacks, and thus no Attack Roll is needed.)

• An Attack involves choosing targets as specified in the power's description, and then making one Attack Roll for each target, and usually one Damage Roll for all targets of that Attack. (Some Attack Powers have Attacks that don't have a Damage Roll, such as Furious Smash.)

• An Attack Roll is always against one specific target. If the Attack Roll results in a critical hit, treat that Attack's Damage Roll as if the dice showed the maximum value for that particular target.

• Some Attack Powers, such as Commander's Strike, tell an ally to make a basic attack against a particular target. To do this they will select an attack power that counts as such, and (in the course of using that power) make an attack against that target, involving an attack roll and a damage roll.

• Some Attack Powers, such as Acid Arrow, tell you to make a secondary attack after your primary attack, if certain conditions (like the first attack hitting its target) are met. This attack might specify the same or different targets from the primary. Rain of Blows is an Attack Power that grants two primary attacks (as specified on the Attack: line of the power), each of which can grant you a secondary attack if that primary attack hits.

I hope this helps to clarify things.

 

[Hypersmurf]

We really have three different things that use the word "attack", as I see it.

Four things. A power with an Attack Type of, say, Area is an Area Attack, even if it is not an Attack Power, has no Attack entry, involves no Attack Roll, and does not permit you to make any Attacks.

-Hyp.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

An added problem, in my opinion, is that in the editing of powers, insufficient attention has been paid to the distinction between Free Action and No Action.

Because Elven Accuracy is defined as a Free Action, it implies to me that it must occur in its own action "slot" -- i.e. it cannot be used in the middle of another action which has multiple phases. (I know, "phase" is not a 4e term, but I hope it meets with your approval anyway.)

I suspect that the RAI for Elven Accuracy is that it should be No Action, and therefore can be used at any time, on any attack roll. But that is just my interpretation, and I do not claim it has validity outside of my own mind.

I also believe that the double attacks such as Twin Strike should be handled as separate attacks, specifically so that if the first target dies after the first attack, the second one can be retargeted. Again, there is room for disagreement.