Elves Are Not Doomed!

[Derren]

I disagree with most of Sharks conclusions. Elves are not the magical powerhouses he says. Except for their favored class there is nothing which even hints that elves are somehow more magical then the other races. If there is one magical race at all, it is gnomes. Don't forget that the number of wizards is limited by the number of people with Int > 10 and elves do not have any Int bonus. So they would not have more wizards than humans because like with humans only 1% or so of the population is smart enough to be a wizard.

The low reproduction rate is the biggest drawback for elves, they recover so slowly from losses that they can't afford to be overly aggressive as it takes several hundered years to recover. And neither do have elves many advantages in combat, unlike what Shark says they do not have any advantages while hiding and laying ambushes. That is the realm of the small races which do have an actual hide bonus.

Elves being higher level than humans? Not in the average. An elf can only start leveling when he is already 100 years old. By that point the human can already be lvl 20 for a long time.

I also disagree that elves are an economic powerhouse. They mostly live in forests which is rather low on valuable ressources so elves would need to constantly import metal, spell components/focus and all other things which are required for a wizard. And they would have not much to trade away except wood.

 

[Particle_Man]

Elves being higher level than humans? Not in the average. An elf can only start leveling when he is already 100 years old. By that point the human can already be lvl 20 for a long time.

But the 300 Year old elf would be 200th level even if he leveled up at the modest rate of 1 level per year. The human would be dead (or maybe undead). Unless that human was friendly with those Elf-loving Druids, and thus was Elf-friendly himself.

 

[Slife]

But the 300 Year old elf would be 200th level even if he leveled up at the modest rate of 1 level per year. The human would be dead (or maybe undead). Unless that human was friendly with those Elf-loving Druids, and thus was Elf-friendly himself.

Why do you automatically assume druids are elf-loving? I could just as easily say that druids tend to dislike elves, because their unnaturally extended lives and fascination with arcane magic threaten the natural order.

 

[Particle_Man]

Why do you automatically assume druids are elf-loving? I could just as easily say that druids tend to dislike elves, because their unnaturally extended lives and fascination with arcane magic threaten the natural order.

Elves have been described as nature-loving in almost every description of elves that exists (with the notable exception of the Drow). Elves are close cousins of the fey (who are often described as immortal, never mind long-lived), which are woodsy if anything is. D&D even has an arcane hierophant class that explicitly is meant to mix druidic and arcane magic. I think I am on safe ground in saying that the default campaign setting will have druids like elves and elves like druids. Heck there are even subraces of elves that are actually called "Wood elves" and "Wild elves" and one of them has druid as their favoured class, iirc. Of course you could make up a campaign where druids hate elves, but it would be unusual in that respect. Note that a campaign setting in which druids don't like "unnaturally extended lives" would also likely be one in which druids are very stingy with the old reincarnation spell, which would again put the lifetime advantage in the elves' (and undead's) favour over humans.

Oh, something else in elves' favour. Elves are traditionally the "elder race", which means that they were usually around long before humans. Meaning that those 200th level elves were around before the first human gained his first PC class level.

 

[Storm Raven]

Elves have been described as nature-loving in almost every description of elves that exists (with the notable exception of the Drow).

Every description of elves that has been published for D&D. The question is not necessarily what inbred versions of elves derived from readings of limited portions of Tolkien come up with, but rather what could elves be if you walk away from the thousands of LotR clones, and instead look back at the actual mythology that they were based upon or even expand your notion of elves to include material from Tolkien's books other than The Hobbit and LotR, like say the city-building, mining, seafaring supermen that were the First Age elves in The Silmarillion. Or the creepy, otherworldly, non-nature based creatures made of magic that crop up in Celtic myths. And so on, and so forth.

 

[Particle_Man]

But if we are leaving D&D elves behind, then we are also leaving Druids as reincarnators of non-elves behind. Where, outside of D&D, do druids bring *other* (non-druid) people back to life in new bodies? Hell, *Merlin* doesn't even do that. He gets pwned like a newb, and at best King Arthur is resting until armaggedon.

Either we are talking about D&D's game mechanics and default setting, or we are talking about "Elves in general". Elves in general are described as long lived (almost universally), feckless, magical, dangerous as all get out, and often insane (by our lights). Or else they are small, friendly, cheerful and make toys for little children under the benevolent dictatorship of Santa Claus, in his North Pole sweatshop . On the non-Santa model, elves usually cannot be directly destroyed (except by certain materials, like cold iron), but can be tricked. Shakespeare's model has Titania and Oberon way more concerned with their marital spat than the humans around them (except as tools to "get at" each other).

Look at Susannah Clarke's work for another great look at non-D&D elves. It was hellish hard to destroy even *one* of them. They were slightly concerned about mages...not at all about normal humans. They certainly were not doomed.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

(bumps this up, and begins perusing it intently)

 

[Banshee16]

Every description of elves that has been published for D&D. The question is not necessarily what inbred versions of elves derived from readings of limited portions of Tolkien come up with, but rather what could elves be if you walk away from the thousands of LotR clones, and instead look back at the actual mythology that they were based upon (or even expand you notion of elves to include material from Tolkien's books other than The Hobbit and LotR, like say the city-building, mining, seafaring supermen that were the First Age elves in The Silmarillion. Or the creepy, otherworldly, non-nature based creatures made of magic that crop up in Celtic myths. And so on, and so forth.

My favourite elves in D&D were the Sidhelien of Birthright. They were cool. And the humans definitely stayed away from them, as elven woods were lethal to mortals.

Banshee

 

[Banshee16]

I disagree with most of Sharks conclusions. Elves are not the magical powerhouses he says. Except for their favored class there is nothing which even hints that elves are somehow more magical then the other races. If there is one magical race at all, it is gnomes. Don't forget that the number of wizards is limited by the number of people with Int > 10 and elves do not have any Int bonus. So they would not have more wizards than humans because like with humans only 1% or so of the population is smart enough to be a wizard.

The low reproduction rate is the biggest drawback for elves, they recover so slowly from losses that they can't afford to be overly aggressive as it takes several hundered years to recover. And neither do have elves many advantages in combat, unlike what Shark says they do not have any advantages while hiding and laying ambushes. That is the realm of the small races which do have an actual hide bonus.

Elves being higher level than humans? Not in the average. An elf can only start leveling when he is already 100 years old. By that point the human can already be lvl 20 for a long time.

I also disagree that elves are an economic powerhouse. They mostly live in forests which is rather low on valuable ressources so elves would need to constantly import metal, spell components/focus and all other things which are required for a wizard. And they would have not much to trade away except wood.

Elves don't have anything that natively gives them an advantage in magic, as per the rules. But I think the way to look at it isn't whether an elf is a better archmage....it's actually that, because their Favoured Class is Wizard, there are far more elves who have a few levels of wizard added onto something else, than there are in other races. Sort of how English is such a widely used language, because it's the most popular second language, although it's not necessarily the most popular first language. When even the chef can cast a bit of magic, because he's an Expert 3/Wizard 1, then you have a magically capable civilization.

Banshee

 

[Herobizkit]

Elves don't have anything that natively gives them an advantage in magic, as per the rules. But I think the way to look at it isn't whether an elf is a better archmage....it's actually that, because their Favoured Class is Wizard, there are far more elves who have a few levels of wizard added onto something else, than there are in other races.

I believe that this, in turn, is a nod to the old Elf "Fighter/Mage" character CLASS from OD&D. And being a multi-classing fan, I strongly support this idea of NPC Elves mixing up Wizard with NPC classes. Heck, if I were to follow this theory, I would go one step further and have Elven "Adepts" use Int instead of Wis as NPC's.

Ruleswise, though, you're right; nothing immediately suggests that Elves make teh awesome wizards other than their favoured class. That kind of stuff belongs in the "fluff" section of whatever world the DM chooses to create or run.

Aw heck, let's even mess with the world and give elves -2 STR and +2 INT, too.