Elves Are Not Doomed!

Ridley's Cohort said:
Elvish pacificism is mythical. It is based on a misguided extrapolation from the narrow sliver of elvish history Tolkien reveals in the LotR.

Or when you live for eons you stay away from sharp pointy items :)

I think Michael Moorcock's Vadhagh (Corum) did more for the pacifist element of the elves. S for 'elves' and their kin 'fading' from the world, a very common theme from sword and sorcery novels of the 60s and 70s, kinda revisited in the 80s and early nineties in romance fanatsy and I'd argue in modern vampire novels of the mid nineties on...IMHO
 

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As others have pointed out, the elves don't have to be doomed, because there's plenty of room to make your elves militarily competent while remaining elf-like; it just depends on your campaign's model of what it means to be an elf.

The elves of Tolkien's Third Age are clearly doomed and fading. They resemble the Ancients, Greek and Roman, from a medieval perspective -- once great, but now gone -- and they serve as a metaphor for magic, which fades and disappears as we grow up.

The elves from Tolkien's First and Second Ages are more like the epic heroes of myth and legend, with great powers and great passions -- they're much more like D&D characters.

Although I don't like the notion of elves as 1960s hippies, I do like the notion of elves having almost modern sensibilities, which are totally at odds with all the races around them, which naturally have primitive sensibilities, born of constant struggle, hunger, and early death.

I think you could have a wonderful campaign playing a group of outcast elves who "get it", who understand that the orcs really do want to kill and eat them all, while the council of elders keeps excusing orc forays into elf woodlands, etc.

(Oh, and good to see you back, SHARK.)
 


mmadsen said:
Although I don't like the notion of elves as 1960s hippies, I do like the notion of elves having almost modern sensibilities, which are totally at odds with all the races around them, which naturally have primitive sensibilities, born of constant struggle, hunger, and early death.

I think you could have a wonderful campaign playing a group of outcast elves who "get it", who understand that the orcs really do want to kill and eat them all, while the council of elders keeps excusing orc forays into elf woodlands, etc.
I don't want to get political, so please don't read too much into the analogy, but if we give our elves fairly modern sensibilities, then that means that the top of their society is not an aristocratic class of warriors -- which puts them far apart from all other societies around them -- and their military is either a small subset of elf society that reveres the elves' martial past, or an underclass, or some outside group (of quasi-barbarians or Mamelukes), or something besides the high-status leadership of elf society.

To outsiders dealing with the elves, they would seem a nation of poets and philosophers, with no fight in 'em -- but our own history has shown that a nation of shopkeepers can spawn a global empire (and after its fall, its former colony can become a global hegemon). To a pre-modern enemy, it may not be obvious how the elves might harness their peaceful magic for war (as the US harnessed its peaceful industry for WWII); they'll have to find out the hard way.

At any rate, SHARK, I suspect you (a) like elves, and (b) have strong opinions about what the elves should do to maintain their place in the world. If you want comedy, you have the elves do the right thing. If you want tragedy, you have them see the light too late.
 

Elves in my campaign are powerful and thriving, but not in ways that make them empire-builders. The role of elves in my game is based on three things:

1) Elves live forever, but they grow less and less like humans as they age. I actually based them on the Pak in Larry Niven's Known Space series (I liked it when I was in my early teens), in that they grow into strong, fast, brilliant xenophobes. Younger elves rely on elders for advice and as a potent line of defense against expansionistic powers. Old "Salath" are, in some ways, like highly cunning animals. They despise most of what we associate with "progress" because, unless visited, they live as pure hunter-gatherers. They are not stupid, but are sensitive to ecological and magical changes in the land. Being killed and eaten by Salath is a real danger for non-elves in elven territories. This does not change the fact that they are actually highly intelligent, however.

2) The ability to reflexively submit to generalized, abstract authority -- a king, lord, high minister, etc. -- is a uniquely human trait in my campaign. Other intelligent beings can learn it, but only humans bow before other humans without having a specific reason. Elves respect others only in particular contexts -- magical ability, skill in the hunt and so on -- making them excellent advturers, but terrible soldiers and (by human standards) politicians. Elves occasionally have "kings," but they're enthroned because they know of an artifact or technique that can bind Salath (elders) to their wills, so everyone is afraid of them.

Elves do not have native words (though they have loan words) for common concepts like war and government. The closest thing to war is a compound word that means, "To hunt, driven by borrowed hatred," indicating that an elf accepts a vendetta against a particular person out of the urgings of a person that the elf respects. The closest thing to a government consists of acclaimed masters of particular crafts and skills who consult with one another to make informed pronouncements within their respective fields. Even then, if the Master of Sorcery says something about how to hunt, it means nothing. This does, however, drive elves to develop extreme skill in at least one niche and to seek out others with complementary abilities. The concept of the "adventuring party" comes from elven culture.

3) Elves do not have collective territorial interests. They make their homes wherever elders live. Settling anywhere else would be foolish and impious when the Salath keep the land. They do not export their own natural resources, but they are highly skilled at various crafts. Elven adventurers typically come from craft-making bands because they're the ones most likely to outfit an elf with generalized gear and teach the value of money, which isn't good for much (precious metal, like abstract authority, is largely lost on them). Enterprising elves occasionally spend a century acquiring a large amount of money for the sake of buying services from other peoples, however.

Similarly, elves do not really have a notion of property, but have an equivalent that might be defined as "What is necessary to answer one's desires." When elves are finished with something they either abandon it or give it away. It is, however, highly insulting to take something that an elf needs to "answer his desires."

These factors have led humans to occasionally believe that elves are poor or defenseless, but no human army has ever held elf territory for more than a few days. The elders are sometimes the cause of this, but it is usually more likely that the invading force impinges on an elf's desires, the elf spreads his resultant hatred to others, and elven adventuring parties kill and/or expel everyone.
 

I was all ready to postulate a contradictory responce, but by the time I got to your second post in the thread, SHARK, I'd actually come around to your way of thinking. I do want my 'average' elven soldier to be a frighteningly deadly figure in mithril mail, holding her own against two dozen orcish grunts, or picking off a score more the shadowed boughs of the upper trees. I do want their mysteries and magic to be older, deeper and more majestic than practically anyone else's.

On the other hand, I play MIDNIGHT, so everyone is doomed anyway. But, aside from the level advantage, it incorporates most of the ideas you discussed.

However, I do think you perhaps don't allow for the idea that, while elves certainly do have lots of fey and wild allies, other races may have just as many allies of their own. For every giant eagle, a wyvern. For every dryad, an ogre. For every silver dragon, a red or black.

Any chance we could see a similar thought experiment for dwarves? I don't like the way that the word most likely to follow 'dwarf' is '-en ruin' :)
 


i don't consider elfs doomed but i think SHARK plays them up alot they are a good race with many strengths but if it came to a all out war with humans is all RAW sittings that i know of they would loose

Humans have numbers lots of numbers they have more casters more powerful casters and more of every thing else to human wizards are just as good as elven wizards and out number them like 5 to 1 human have allies lots of allies and no races that hate them just for being them(like the orcs) but elfs are human allies i think you should have choosen for them to go to war on a weaker race then the boundless hoard that is humanity. like orcs, goblins or dragons.
 

Dirigible said:
I do want my 'average' elven soldier to be a frighteningly deadly figure in mithril mail, holding her own against two dozen orcish grunts, or picking off a score more [from] the shadowed boughs of the upper trees.
D&D, with its hit dice, does not model this well, but I love the notion of highly skilled elf warriors who are no tougher than their brutish foes. (Perhaps we could introduce a variant fighter class for those who train and train in their art without actually fighting -- smaller hit die, but more feats and/or skill points.)

When you think about it, an unaging warrior wouldn't live through much more combat than an aging (e.g. human) warrior, because the limiting factor isn't natural lifespan; it's surviving the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune. A typical elf warrior might be a veteran of only a few pitched battles -- but a few elf champions might have survived dozens of great wars over the centuries.
 

If I may add another thought, I like the idea of elves as light cavalry -- light aerial cavalry, on giant eagles or owls. This allows them to remain aloof and virtually invulnerable while raining down arrows, and it allows a few troops to appear almost anywhere on short notice, vastly mulitplying the effect of those few warriors.
 

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