DragonLancer
Adventurer
Generally no. My campaigns are pretty static where the tech and social levels are concerned. I just don't see a need a change that because I'm not running a game of social advancement, after all.
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- Thread starter SHARK
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Irda Ranger
First Post
Greetings to you, SHARK!
To answer your question, yes ... and no.
Luckily, I'm a pretty inventive fellow when it comes to post-rationalizing outcomes I've already decided on, and I've thought of several reasons why technological progress bounces around (geographically, from kingdom to kingdom) between the iron age and the medieval period without advancing much beyond.
My answer to why technological solutions have not invented black powder is ... it has been invented! but it's far, far to dangerous. Recall that the Wizard's spell list is essentially infinite, subject only to the GM's discretion of power. If Faction A invents a revolutionary technological weapon, it is only common sense that Faction B will seek to counter that weapon with the cheapest and easiest solution possible. Further, it is a perfectly conceivable and reasonable 1st level spell to create a torch-sized flame at any distance, subject to vision or known coordinates. Therefore, no right-thinking castle defender will allow black powder inside his walls - the chance that an enemy spellcaster will scry its position and blow the cache (taking the tower and defenses it's in with it) is just too great.
So that's the "No" part of my answer. Certain technologies are simply too fragile or combustible to exist is a world with magic. Some Gnomes have toyed with electrical generators, for instance, but any Lightning Bolt spell, breath weapon or electrical shock weapon in the wrong place can blow the whole grid.
But there is a "Yes" part of my answer too. Different races, kingdoms and regions have different levels of technology. In a non-Google world ruled by Guilds who seek to protect their "Guild secrets", technological exchange can be glacial, if at all. I mix it up too. Some kingdoms have may have bronze-age metallurgy but tall ships akin to the Spanish galleons that came to the New World (there's no reason they have to have advanced at the same rate and direction as "real" history). Certain races also display certain affinities: the fey cannot bear the touch of iron or steel; the Marshborn (a human sub-type) can hold their breath under water for quite a while, they favor the crossbow over the bow, and avoid swinging weapons in favor of thrusting weapons; etc.
I also have some simple house rules explaining the benefits of various materials from a weapons and armor p.o.v. First, all metal weapons have the ratings in the book - against armor and shields of the same material. Bronze weapons suffer a -1 dmg vs. iron or steel armor, and bronze armor suffers a -1 DR vs. iron or steel weapons. Iron suffers no penalties vs. steel, but is 1.5x as heavy as the ratings in the book, which matters for purposes of fatigue, encumbrance and environmental effects (like heat). As a GM I find this useful because I can load up my Orcs and goblins with lots of bronze weapons and armor, but the PC's don't try carting it all back with them to sell - they know from experience that their steel-using culture has no use for such weapons, and merchants won't buy them.
Lastly, certain technologies are somewhat more advanced than real-Earth developed, driven by the need to adapt to the fantasy world they live in. Many castles and towers in the wealthier and more advanced nations are made with a cement that's made with lead rebar (or ward against scrying) and inset with Oak planks blessed and enruned by certain faiths (to ward off curses intended to spoil the food and water supplies). Good cement is largely as immune to magical effects as solid, naturally occurring granite, and so technological progress has advanced beyond the standard medieval in that respect (but only in the most advanced kingdoms).
To answer your question, yes ... and no.
There's some of this IMC too, but no one is organized enough to really put a stop to progress. There's no all-powerful Catholic Church or Chinese Emperor equivalent. BUT, I (as world-designer) want to avoid technological progress because it's just to darn fast. If you consider real human history you'll realize that we went from pyramids to rocket ships in six(?) elven generations, or the single lifetime of a dragon. That's just too fast!Teflon Billy said:
Luckily, I'm a pretty inventive fellow when it comes to post-rationalizing outcomes I've already decided on, and I've thought of several reasons why technological progress bounces around (geographically, from kingdom to kingdom) between the iron age and the medieval period without advancing much beyond.
Absolutely! Imagine the effect a fireball would have on a castle's powder supply!Teflon Billy said:
My answer to why technological solutions have not invented black powder is ... it has been invented! but it's far, far to dangerous. Recall that the Wizard's spell list is essentially infinite, subject only to the GM's discretion of power. If Faction A invents a revolutionary technological weapon, it is only common sense that Faction B will seek to counter that weapon with the cheapest and easiest solution possible. Further, it is a perfectly conceivable and reasonable 1st level spell to create a torch-sized flame at any distance, subject to vision or known coordinates. Therefore, no right-thinking castle defender will allow black powder inside his walls - the chance that an enemy spellcaster will scry its position and blow the cache (taking the tower and defenses it's in with it) is just too great.
So that's the "No" part of my answer. Certain technologies are simply too fragile or combustible to exist is a world with magic. Some Gnomes have toyed with electrical generators, for instance, but any Lightning Bolt spell, breath weapon or electrical shock weapon in the wrong place can blow the whole grid.
But there is a "Yes" part of my answer too. Different races, kingdoms and regions have different levels of technology. In a non-Google world ruled by Guilds who seek to protect their "Guild secrets", technological exchange can be glacial, if at all. I mix it up too. Some kingdoms have may have bronze-age metallurgy but tall ships akin to the Spanish galleons that came to the New World (there's no reason they have to have advanced at the same rate and direction as "real" history). Certain races also display certain affinities: the fey cannot bear the touch of iron or steel; the Marshborn (a human sub-type) can hold their breath under water for quite a while, they favor the crossbow over the bow, and avoid swinging weapons in favor of thrusting weapons; etc.
I also have some simple house rules explaining the benefits of various materials from a weapons and armor p.o.v. First, all metal weapons have the ratings in the book - against armor and shields of the same material. Bronze weapons suffer a -1 dmg vs. iron or steel armor, and bronze armor suffers a -1 DR vs. iron or steel weapons. Iron suffers no penalties vs. steel, but is 1.5x as heavy as the ratings in the book, which matters for purposes of fatigue, encumbrance and environmental effects (like heat). As a GM I find this useful because I can load up my Orcs and goblins with lots of bronze weapons and armor, but the PC's don't try carting it all back with them to sell - they know from experience that their steel-using culture has no use for such weapons, and merchants won't buy them.
Lastly, certain technologies are somewhat more advanced than real-Earth developed, driven by the need to adapt to the fantasy world they live in. Many castles and towers in the wealthier and more advanced nations are made with a cement that's made with lead rebar (or ward against scrying) and inset with Oak planks blessed and enruned by certain faiths (to ward off curses intended to spoil the food and water supplies). Good cement is largely as immune to magical effects as solid, naturally occurring granite, and so technological progress has advanced beyond the standard medieval in that respect (but only in the most advanced kingdoms).
Raven Crowking
First Post
In my rewrite of the D&D rules, I've formalized a few systems for this to take place. First off, I gave each race (and subrace) a base Tech Level. In the Skills section, I have included the means for skills to go beyond your Tech Level, and to invent new things. I included two feats to change your TL, and incorporated Secrets (things that you might not know simply due to skill ranks or level), and a Legacy mechanic that allows the players to make changes to the world or their PCs over time.
The result is a much more dynamic setting where what you know becomes important, and some characters are as interested in riffling a library as a treasure vault.
RC
The result is a much more dynamic setting where what you know becomes important, and some characters are as interested in riffling a library as a treasure vault.
RC
Kid Charlemagne
I am the Very Model of a Modern Moderator
Raven Crowking said:
That sound very cool - have you posted those rules anywhere?
I'm planning on advancing my games tech level and proliferation of magic level over the next several campaigns. I've already got firearms; airships and such are probably a century or so away.
Raven Crowking
First Post
Kid Charlemagne said:
I believe I've posted the TL rules here on EN World somewhere.....
The other rules are integrated into many sections of my houserules document, and there are parts that I am still refining. "Secrets" was a no-brainer. Most Item Creation Feat grants you the Secret of making X items of that type, and you gain Z secrets per Y levels thereafter. You can also gain secrets from others who have them, so that two PC potion brewers can effectively double the recipes they know.
Likewise, things like sliding rivets for armour, or metal folding techniques for weaponsmiths, would be secrets that make their product more in demand. Where silk comes from is a secret. In its simplest form, recipes for ales and cakes are secrets. In the legend of Heather Ale, the keepers of that secret were willing to die rather than let invaders know how heather ale was brewed.
RC
Phlebas
First Post
I virtually did the reverse IMC, its supposed to be in the remains of a large empire so a lot of technology is not available / can't be made (eg heavy armour has to be inherited as the secret of making it effectively has been lost)
but on the other hand I've had new nations rise with new tactics, religions and ideas (domesticating riding creatures as opposed to chariots for example) so the feel of the game is one of both discovery and re-discovery.
I publish a history of the world for my players and I try to keep change occuring in the background that may (one day) provide a plot element
(its a lot easier if you restrict, then allow standard technology, than having a arms race of specials)
but on the other hand I've had new nations rise with new tactics, religions and ideas (domesticating riding creatures as opposed to chariots for example) so the feel of the game is one of both discovery and re-discovery.
I publish a history of the world for my players and I try to keep change occuring in the background that may (one day) provide a plot element
(its a lot easier if you restrict, then allow standard technology, than having a arms race of specials)
Tonguez
A suffusion of yellow
A few years back Rangerwicket did a thought exercise on this board looking at magic and warfare that developed into a setting which was aproximately late bronze age
Anyway the core nation of Cressia was a Druidic theocracy as such it had vast gardens and grown and wood-shaped architecture. Roads lined with rose thorns as fodder entangle spells, and a reliance on companion and awakened animals. (They also employed lycanthorpy but thats a specific quirk)
The Cressians were invaded by a fire worshipping bronze using society with a strong bardic tradition who used mobile fortifications to house inspiring bards to assist its fighters. The fire use of this group were initially devestating but were soon countered by guerilla tactics from the lycanthorps, druids, rangers and raging barbarians of Cressia. The Cressians also developed more open city plans and use of water courses to counter the fire attacks. Howl (Shout Spell) was developed to counter the Bards.
Anyway these bardic invaders were eventually defeated and their homelands incorporated into the Cressian empire with a new Sept (Guild) established to recognise the Bards and bronzeworking talent. The members of that Sept are a distrusted minority who worship a 'foreign' fire-god.
It was a great exercise and showed spell development as a form of M.A.D
At the current time the Cressians have a shaky peace with the Iron using city-states of the northern mountains who comprise a mix of humans, hobgoblins and ogres unified by a common clergy.
Beyond the mountains is a desert plateau occupied by griffon riding elf scorcerers who have been conquered by Centaur Warriors. The Cresians and the Centaurs have come into conflict and all out war threatens. Already Elf Griffonriders have proven to be a threat to the open planned Cressian cities
* A fourth nation of Bull-leaping Monks who worshiper Scorcerer-Kings on their way to transforming into Dragons has also appeared from over the horizon. Amongst other things they are Eugenicist and use magic to combine and 'improve' creatures (creating monsters like the Owlbear and Minotaurs)
Anyway the core nation of Cressia was a Druidic theocracy as such it had vast gardens and grown and wood-shaped architecture. Roads lined with rose thorns as fodder entangle spells, and a reliance on companion and awakened animals. (They also employed lycanthorpy but thats a specific quirk)
The Cressians were invaded by a fire worshipping bronze using society with a strong bardic tradition who used mobile fortifications to house inspiring bards to assist its fighters. The fire use of this group were initially devestating but were soon countered by guerilla tactics from the lycanthorps, druids, rangers and raging barbarians of Cressia. The Cressians also developed more open city plans and use of water courses to counter the fire attacks. Howl (Shout Spell) was developed to counter the Bards.
Anyway these bardic invaders were eventually defeated and their homelands incorporated into the Cressian empire with a new Sept (Guild) established to recognise the Bards and bronzeworking talent. The members of that Sept are a distrusted minority who worship a 'foreign' fire-god.
It was a great exercise and showed spell development as a form of M.A.D
At the current time the Cressians have a shaky peace with the Iron using city-states of the northern mountains who comprise a mix of humans, hobgoblins and ogres unified by a common clergy.
Beyond the mountains is a desert plateau occupied by griffon riding elf scorcerers who have been conquered by Centaur Warriors. The Cresians and the Centaurs have come into conflict and all out war threatens. Already Elf Griffonriders have proven to be a threat to the open planned Cressian cities
* A fourth nation of Bull-leaping Monks who worshiper Scorcerer-Kings on their way to transforming into Dragons has also appeared from over the horizon. Amongst other things they are Eugenicist and use magic to combine and 'improve' creatures (creating monsters like the Owlbear and Minotaurs)
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Well... in the Renaissance-era core of my setting, airships (Zeppelin-style, not Eberron-elemental style) have just come online. They aren't very fast, there's maybe four of them in all so far, and they can't carry a whole lot, but they're dead secure from current pirates. Construct technology has been developed within the past fifty years by one of the great mages of the setting. They take some time to make – they're designed as works of art as well as function – and there's only one source, so there's about a hundred, hundred and fifty or so constructs in the whole campaign world. A more recent development has been abstracting construct-power into isolated mechanical devices.
Clocks exist, gunpowder's been around for 30 years or so (it suffers from Irda Ranger's theory about fire-slinging mages, but mages aren't very common), the printing press is not online yet (2 turns to discovery!), a new continent has been discovered and is in the earliest stages of colonization.
Magic advancement has had a much longer arc. The earliest form of arcane magic, pact magic, has been around for thousands of years, until somebody figured out that acuity for magic ran in families, and started wedding across families. This paid off, and the first sorcerors appeared. Generations later, sorcerors were bred, not taught, and these were the mages in humanity's earliest empires. The advancement came in something approaching a systematic approach to magic, and the first wizards appeared, with the huge advantage that they could actually choose their powers in days or weeks instead of generations. Eventually, sorcerors were forgotten about, which becomes noteworthy later because of an apocalyptic event, an incursion of demons with (previously unheard-of) psionic powers. Henceforth, the ability to summon magic out of nothing is considered demonic, because psionic powers are demonic (no ands if or buts), and those few people with latent sorceror powers are also considered demonic, though they're not. D'oh! (Bards are not spontaneous casters in this setting.)
There is more to it all than that (golden ages! cyclical catastrophes! rise and fall! etc) but that is enough for now.
Clocks exist, gunpowder's been around for 30 years or so (it suffers from Irda Ranger's theory about fire-slinging mages, but mages aren't very common), the printing press is not online yet (2 turns to discovery!), a new continent has been discovered and is in the earliest stages of colonization.
Magic advancement has had a much longer arc. The earliest form of arcane magic, pact magic, has been around for thousands of years, until somebody figured out that acuity for magic ran in families, and started wedding across families. This paid off, and the first sorcerors appeared. Generations later, sorcerors were bred, not taught, and these were the mages in humanity's earliest empires. The advancement came in something approaching a systematic approach to magic, and the first wizards appeared, with the huge advantage that they could actually choose their powers in days or weeks instead of generations. Eventually, sorcerors were forgotten about, which becomes noteworthy later because of an apocalyptic event, an incursion of demons with (previously unheard-of) psionic powers. Henceforth, the ability to summon magic out of nothing is considered demonic, because psionic powers are demonic (no ands if or buts), and those few people with latent sorceror powers are also considered demonic, though they're not. D'oh! (Bards are not spontaneous casters in this setting.)
There is more to it all than that (golden ages! cyclical catastrophes! rise and fall! etc) but that is enough for now.
awayfarer
First Post
SHARK said:
it was basically a little, mildly-comical break in the middle of a war zone. A reporter came over to interview them and took a picture with the newfangled device, momentarily blinding them in the process.
Thus far not much has developed (ha! film joke!) from that. Eberron is good for tossing in odd magic devices and technology that is similar to real-world stuff though. It might not be the only innovation that House Cannith or the gnomes come up with.
barsoomcore
Unattainable Ideal
Well, you know.SHARK said:
Dinosaurs.
Pirates.
Ninjas.
Plus robots and monkeys, of course.
Actually at this point much of the setting is poorly detailed at best. Basically it's a fantasy Asia/Polynesia where a bunch of ninja clans have set up shop with assorted pirate kingdoms in order to resist the encroachments of the might Empire into their dense archipelago.
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