EN World City Project: Geography

[Conaill]

Uhm... Knightfall?

I double checked the scale, and I think you may be *way* off. If that scale bar is only 100 feet, your Mor's end would only be about 880 feet end-to-end! You sure you don't mean yards or meters?

Here's my calculations for the total size of Mor's End, copied from the first page:

According to Magical Medival Society, a Small City has a population density of 80-120 adults/acre, and 40-60 structures/acre. That comes to a total of about 100 acres (less than 1/2 a mile side-to-side!) and ~5000 structures.

Just checking the conversion tool... 100 acres is a circle with a 360 meter (1200 feet) radius.

Adding in the surface area taken up by the river, 880 meters or yards across seems just about right. (Mind you, this was probably the *smallest* estimate for the size of the city on the first page. But I don't think anyone else managed to put any concrete number on it.)

This means that the Citadel island for example is about 100 meters wide and 200 meter long (~300'x600', the length of two american football fields), which is probably big enough to have a central keep within its walls. The width of the roads and walls is probably not to scale right now.

This is also why I wanted to shorten the span of Highbridge a little, and why I've been referring to Newbridge as a marvel of dwarven engineering: a 100 meter/yard long medieval bridge is nothing to sneeze at! (Note hat your river gates would have to be of a similar massive scale as well...)

Sorry to break the bad news, Knightfall. I hope it doesn't mess things up too much. But I figure it's better to correct this now than later.

PS: another useful value for you: standard wagon gauge (wheel-to-wheel width) is around 5'. Call it 6' or 2 meters/yards. Minimum width for he main bridges should be ~5 meters/yards (15') to have just a little room to spare. Minor bridges coould very well be single-lane.

 

[jdavis]

I like the internal city walls but it seems that any internal walls would be from the "old" city and the new walls would encompass the newer sections. I don't know how you would show that because I don't know what sections of the city are new and old, but that needs to be taken into account. The dwarf section may also have it's own curtain wall dating back to the time it was first settled. I like the idea of the towers in the river but I don't know about arches between, maybe just a pull chain system to stop boats from entering and the towers on the rivers edge actually being in the river, a tower in the middle would only be needed where the river was widest (in the south). I like wall bridge but the way it is set up you don't need the outer wall/tower/chain, that would be a either/or both are not needed. Also remember that 90% of the towns trouble comes from the south, any extra protection should be directed that way.

The Map looks great and keeps getting better.

 

[TGD@work]

Great job, KF72. Thanks again.

Something about walls: the first idea was a palissade aroud quite a young and still vulnerable city.
With these walls we're way further along the timeline. All this doesn't happen overnight. I don't know if we're still talking about a 300 years old city but if it's the case, I don't think so many walls are possible. It is still a trade city and not a fortified garnison city.
The other thing is that it was supposed to be a chaotic city but it looks more like a paladin' stronghold as it is now. Putting up walls in a chaotic city is even slower than elsewhere. The more you fortify the city, the less plot hooks you get too.

 

[Lalato]

Enoria, Anoria...

Doesn't matter to me what the lake is called... Enoria just happened to be one of the names from the original list...

We really haven't named anything after Piratecat... We could do something based on his name...

Lake Pirata
Lake Kulcat
Lake Kulpin

those aren't all that good... but I'm sure someone else can deliver the goods...

--sam

 

[Lalato]

Finally... something Conaill and I can agree on...

The scale should be 100 yards or meters not 100 ft.

As for the inner walls... I think that they should only surround the old city... Which brings up an interesting question... where exactly is the old city?

I had always assumed that the old city was on the northern banks of the Mor River. Right around where Old Bridge currently is...

I like the idea that the dwarven area might be walled off... perhaps because it started as a garrison just outside the original city walls.

Are we still going to have a maze-like area in the city? If so... where should that be... North side or South side?)

Just looking at those maps makes me want to go out and buy CC2 today.... Sigh...

--sam

 

[Conaill]

You feeling ok, lalato? You don't quite seem yourself today, with all this agreeing with me and stuff. You're going to start making me doubt my own position now!

Nah, not really

Yes, I think the Old City would be the area around Oldbridge. More or less where Grey Dwarf placed "Commerce" on his last district map. (That's why I suggested some of the posh district should be integrated in that area as well: that's where the oldest houses are...). Not sure Mor's End is even old enough to have an inner set of walls though. And in cities where there is an inner ringwall, it's usually because the city has outgrown it's bounds, not for extra protection. In fact, those innner walls quickly tend to become integrated into the surrounded buildings, used as building material etc., and lose a lot of their defensive capability.

Maze-like area: I suggested South of the river (notice how small the streets are?), in between the marketplace/Bazaar and the Squats. That seems like the most logical place.

 

[TGD@work]

Re: Enoria, Anoria...

We really haven't named anything after Piratecat... We could do something based on his name...

Apart from a mountain range, you mean?

I like the idea that the dwarven area might be walled off... perhaps because it started as a garrison just outside the original city walls.

I agree.

Maze-like area: I suggested South of the river (notice how small the streets are?), in between the marketplace/Bazaar and the Squats. That seems like the most logical place.

Yep

That's why I suggested some of the posh district should be integrated in that area as well: that's where the oldest houses are...

I rather think they moved out of the crowded areas as they became rich. To show they were not as common as the others and to get a bigger domain to build on than in small old streets.

 

[Knightfall]

A question?

Ok, I've rescaled the map and it should be a lot closer to what it should be. It's a good thing we figured that out, otherwise it would have been impossible to change it later.

Question... how wide should the main roads be? So far, I've rescaled all the roads to be 30 feet wide, except for some of the roads in the squat and dock region which are now 20 feet.

{EDIT}

Oh yes, and what about the city's outer towers - what's should be the width.

I've removed the western waterway wall and removed the water towers from the other two but kept the wall. (This means a huge single arch for each water wall. I've also taken out the inner curtain wall but plan to build an internal curtain wall around the dwarven district (and maybe the old city near the citadel).

 

[TGD@work]

Re: A question?

Ok, I've rescaled the map and it should be a lot closer to what it should be. It's a good thing we figured that out, otherwise it would have been impossible to change it later.
Question... how wide should the main roads be? So far, I've rescaled all the roads to be 30 feet wide, except for some of the roads in the squat and dock region which are now 20 feet.
KF72

30 for the caravan roads
15 - 20 for the main streets
10 for the small streets

[Ed]
Watch towers, 10 yard diameter.
Garrison towers 15 yards diameter.

 

[Lalato]

My guess... since I'm no expert...

30 ft is fine for main thoroughfares... but 20 ft migh be too big for other roads. I would guess 15' for other main roads... and even 10' for streets in the Squats, the Tangle/Maze/Snake, Jollita, and Residential...

--sam