Enchanted Castles!

[Castellan]

...really? Or is this an attempt at humor? If so, you must spare the dim-witted. If not, then please enlighten me with references.

Rogue

I think he's referring to Sean K Reynolds' comment that only things imbued with spells from the Enchantment school can be referred to as "enchanted." There's been a huge outcry on these board since he made the statement in a rant on his website (seankreynolds.com). Personally, the day I regard Sean's kind of drivel as "word from on high" is the day I let Forgotten Realms novels dictate what direction the campaign setting goes...

Regarding "enchanted" fortifications, there are lots of things you have to think about. There was a great article in Dragon Magazine many years back about some of the basics of fantasy-world castles. A lot of the article focused on the fact that you have people and things that can fly, and people and things that can teleport. Definitely two things you need to think about.

I allow structures in my campaigns to prevent Ethereal interlopers if they incorporate gorgons' blood in the mortar, or lead sheets surrounding the rooms someone wants protected. Lots of "contingency" spells can be put into place to prevent unwanted invaders. And it's not unreasonable to assume various magical defenses, from tower-mounted wands of Magic Missile to "kill zones" designed to maximize Cloudkill spell use.

A lot of castle defenses, including those incorporated during construction and those added afterward, depend on the availability of magic in your campaign. I have a serious problem imagining mass availability of spellcasters capable of casting 4th-level and higher spells. This doesn't mean they don't exist -- just that they don't exist in great numbers and aren't likely to hire themselves out as simple "castle guards." I can imagine an elite unit of 1st or 2nd level sorcerers for attack and defense, both in a siege-setting and a typical battlefield-setting. I can even swallow the idea of a small, elite special-forces skirmish team of five or six 4th-level sorcerers (or even 3rd level wizards).

However, your typical spellcaster is rarer than fighter-types, and therefore less likely to be available for large-scale combat, including castle siege. I would think that only spellcasters of higher levels who have a special interest in the capture or destruction of a castle would get involved in a siege.

Even in a typical D&D setting, magic isn't cheap, and constructing a magic castle is far more expensive than a regular one. And with the vast majority of invading troops being Warriors and Fighters instead of Sorcerers and Wizards, magic armaments aren't so necessary -- especially if you have to keep a paid spellcaster on staff just to recharge your items.

From the point of view of a commander attacking a physically-impossible castle design, or one that has been significantly augmented by magic (gravity-defying as above, or other such designs) I would look into the possibility of employing one or two high-level spellcasters. I wouldn't bring them to the battle. Instead, I'd hire them to make me a boatload of wands of Dispel Magic. I'd hire expendable 1st level wizards or sorcerers (after all, there are a lot more 1st level wizards than 10th level wizards!) to wield the wands, and I'd just start pointing them at everything I see. If I'm attacking a tower that's three-times taller than medieval-fantasy engineering can usually allow, I know that eventually at least one of those Dispel Magic wands is going to knock out something vitally important to the structure's integrity. I can lay normal siege, and simply wait till some or all of the wall (or even the whole tower) collapses. Given that lots of enemy troops might die, or my whole job might be completed from the action of one wand-bearer, it's better to go that route first.

So, ultimately, other than some mobile defenses, and a few more passive methods of protecting a castle, I tend to think that heavy magical augmentation of a castle design isn't in the best interests of the builders.

Anyone have other thoughts?

 

[Falcon]

Yep.

Then imagine all those specialists who counter said traps and spells. In the field of battle before the fortrese, imagine entire units of warriors held back until a spell-caster makes their presence known Imagine spell-casters playing hide and seek, knowing that one wrong move could reveal themselves to attack by arms and magic. Imgaine strategists willing to lose thousands of warriors to quell one mighty spell-caster. Imaging layers of contingency spells woven into the frabic of the fortress.

As long as the players are willing to work with something like that, go for it.

 

[Castellan]

Imagine ... [lots of really cool things that make for amazing mental images]!

I like all of these ideas. They're really cool! But my-oh-my who is going to pay for them?

I shudder to think how many dragon hoards had to be depleated just for one of these structures to be created.

Okay, okay. "This is D&D! Anything can happen!" Yes, that's true. However, if your groups are anything like mine, as soon as I incorporate something of this nature into the game, my players are going to want one, too.

Ultimately, I think we get blinded and overwhelmed by the sheer volume of magic effects available to us. I think it's a good idea to simplify. Commanders and Generals are going to make use of the magic that is most readily-available to them. If all their military might resides in one high-level wizard, why would an opposing force do anything other than try to steal or destroy that wizard's spellbooks? Eliminate the high-level wizard (or at least make him have to go home to get his back-up spellbooks, which he'll want to make new copies of before he comes back) and you have a standard enemy force, again.

Try this on for size: sit down with the Player's Handbook and look at only the 0-, 1st-, and 2nd-level spells for spellcasters who might be involved in combat (sorcerers/wizards, and priests). I think these are the kind of troops and specialists you'd have access to. Lose an 18th-level wizard, and it might be years or decades before you have another replacement. 1st-level spellcasters are, relatively, a copper piece a dozen!

In just the 1st-level sorcerer/wizard spell list in the Player's Handbook, I see the following spells that I'd use in defense of a castle (or in attacking it):

* Hold Portal -- it won't keep the gates held fast forever, but it's a great stopgap measure.

* Shield -- Want to get your battering ram in place without losing so many troops to the archers on the wall? This is the spell for you.

* Grease -- Climbing those ladders to get on the walls suddenly became a *lot* harder!

* Obscuring Mist -- Want to do something devious near the walls but you don't want the defender to tell what you're up to...?

* Summon Monster I -- summon Fiendish Hawks to occupy the archers on the wall so you can get up those ladders, or sneak up close to the wall and conjure some Fiendish Dire Rats to freak out the troops inside!

* Sleep -- Good for clearing a wall-segment, or in preparation for a sortie.

* Spider Climb -- Who needs a ladder when you can climb up anywhere you want?

* Reduce -- Coupled with Spider Climb, you can sneak in through an arrow slit, or maybe even just hop through the portcullis. Once inside, kill/maim/destroy.


These aren't even all the spells... Just some obvious choices. But once you've used a bunch of 1st-level spells like this, how much more do you really need? At this level, you've got a serious amount of aid to an attack, especially if you have 30 or 40 wizards or sorcerers to do the casting.

Add a few spellcasters with 2nd-level spells and you can wreak havoc on catapults and ballistae with nothing more than a few well-placed Web spells! And do you think that battering ram is going to be useful once you've hit it with a Web spell followed by a flaming arrow? Repeat as needed until no more troops want to take up positions at the ram, or the ram itself is a burnt cinder.

True, the high-level stuff makes for some really epic-level storytelling, but from a practical standpoint, I think you're likely to find most of the gruntwork being done by the grunts. And that means low-level troops.

Hope I'm not taking the wind out of your sails

 

[SHARK]

Greetings!

Hey Castellan! Nope, not at all friend. I like all of your ideas as well! I suppose I'm a *Medium Fantasy* as opposed to either High or Low Fantasy. I say that in the sense that I oftentimes consider myself to run a campaign that typifies about 2/3 *Low Fantasy* and mixes 1/3 *High Fantasy* I don't especially like "Magic everything, everywhere" and the players can just walk into a *magic shop* and order up whatever they like from the DMG. Nope. I like the players to struggle and sweat for everything they get. I recall that my group pretty much went until 4th or 5th level with nothing more than a few helpful potions, and the most benign of scrolls, as magic. Thus, I tend to really like *realistic, gritty fantasy*

However, having said that, though I probably have that standard rule over much of the campaign area, in the elven realms, and in the wealthiest of the great empires, I can't help but carefully integrate *High Fantasy* into it more. The incredible magic available--combined with great wealth--seems to demand that some very different realities prevail than the typical 14th century European town image. I suppose I strive for the best of both worlds! Thus, *Medium Fantasy*

In thinking about the impact of high-level magic, it can of course become very *High Fantasy* Which, is just very cool. Still, depending on their degree of numbers and presence, such an impact can be indeed variable. However, Castellan, as you pointed out, and it reminds me of my own thinking, that even the most low-level spell-casters will, with sufficient numbers, and over time, --have dramatic impact upon the campaign world as a whole. Your list, (well detailed I might add)--serves as a fine appetizer to the possibilities!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

 

[LostSoul]

I have a serious problem imagining mass availability of spellcasters capable of casting 4th-level and higher spells. This doesn't mean they don't exist -- just that they don't exist in great numbers and aren't likely to hire themselves out as simple "castle guards."

What makes you think that Wizards, Sorcerers, Bards, and Clerics wouldn't be the rulers of a D&D world? With the Enchantment spells at their disposal, no other class can stand up to them in the political arena. It is much more likely (in my opinion) that a high-level wielder of magic will take the reins of a country and build castles with all the resources at his disposal - including the legions of apprentices that he has trained.

If you consider the longevity of the demi-human races, the fortresses of elves and dwarves will be nearly impregnable.

 

[SHARK]

I Think Spell Casters Would Rule

Greetings!

Indeed, I tend to think that the spellcasters would, over time, build up a system where dozens, or even hundreds of effective spellcasters could be trained on an ongoing basis.

That prospect, would change the campaign environment to an enormous degree. I don't think most people really want to consider that, or deal with its deeper implications, and what it would do to virtually every level of society.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

 

[Castellan]

What makes you think that Wizards, Sorcerers, Bards, and Clerics wouldn't be the rulers of a D&D world?

...

If you consider the longevity of the demi-human races, the fortresses of elves and dwarves will be nearly impregnable.

These are good points. It's probably reasonable to assume that this kind of thing is happening at least somewhere in any game world, especially if you have a mid- to high-magic campaign.

Again, though, I think the cost involved (in this case, to the ruling spellcaster) is probably a bit high. I'm not sure I'd want to devote a significant portion of my daily spell slots to various (SKR) Enchantments. I'd also have to be pretty picky about my apprentices, and it'd be vital that they be both Lawful *and* loyal to me. Certainly narrows the field a bit.

I'd guess that Wizards would probably be least interested in rulership. I consider them the most scholarly of the spell-using classes, devoting much of their time to spell research and arcane studies, rather than rule of a land.

Priests would probably form some type of religion-based government if given the chance (at least the more Lawful ones would), but in a generic setting where polytheism is the norm, that kind of restriction would result in one nation battling the "heathens" for some kind of religious purity. The difference between a fantasy campaign where this happens and real-life history is that Christianity didn't have to deal with Wizards and Sorcerers who might not agree with certain restrictions.

In a way, Sorcerers and Bards seem the most likely spellcasters to rule. Sorcerers could claim their "royal bloodline" is what provides them with spells, and gives them some divine right to the throne. Of course, you're likely to have trouble when some peasant's child turns up being a Sorcerer. You might end up seeing mass slaughter of anyone with magical ability not linked to the throne (similar in some ways to the Aes Sedai in Robert Jordan's "Wheel of Time" novels). And although Bards have the inherent leadership capabilities you'd like to see in a ruler, their wandering nature is probably not likely to lead many of them into a life of sedentary rulership.

Regarding non-human races such as elves and dwarves, I agree with your point. You probably *are* likely to see some pretty impressive fortresses from them: something they've had centuries to improve upon and make truly impregnable. My guess, however, is that you'd still only find a handful of these places in a given world. Anything on the border with another nation (elves bordering dwarves or humans, for instance) is probably less likely to have ultra strong magic protecting it. This higher-level magic takes longer to cast and requires a more accomplished spellcaster. You probably don't want them on your "front lines" reinforcing something that might be attacked. And if you're at peace with a neighbor and they find out you're fortifying all your border forts with high-level magic, this tends to lead to serious political problems. It's a fantasy-world arms race (as mentioned above) that will most likely result either in "disarmament" (i.e. Dispel Magic) or war, which is likely to have a similar effect once all is said and done.

Obviously, much of this is dependent on your game world. If you have lots of high-level Wizards, Sorcerers, and Priests, you've got less difficulty coming up with better protections. But I subscribe to the idea (presented in the 2nd Addition AD&D "High Level Campaigns" DM's Option book, and perhaps others as well) that for each level you go up, you have half as many characters of a given class than the level below. Thus, for every 100 1st-level Wizards, you've only got 50 at 2nd-level, and only 3 at level 6, with a measly one at level 7. So, out of every 196 spellcasters, you probably have only one who can cast 4th-level Wizard spells. And the number who can cast higher-level spells is even smaller. That's my real basis for my position.

Again, as you suggest, it doesn't mean this can't happen, just that it's going to be extremely rare, and a truly spectacular place. A place of legends. It's also likely to become a major rallying-point if your world ever undergoes any kind of "world war." It's definitely the kind of place I'd want to visit as a friend, and not be charged with attacking and destroying!

 

[DMaple]

...really? Or is this an attempt at humor? If so, you must spare the dim-witted. If not, then please enlighten me with references.

Rogue

Rogue you may consider yourself spared. Castellan has already pointed you to the correct reference in answer to your question.

 

[Dragonblade]

Hey Excellent thread, SHARK! In case you don't recognize the name, I changed from Tokyogamer to Dragonblade. The name of one of my paladin characters. The reason being that I don't live in Tokyo anymore!

Anyway, your post brings up a lot of interesting ideas. If magic existed as it does according to D&D rules then it is inevitable that fortresses such as you envision would come about. I'll have to think about it a little more before I can come up with some good ideas to add to your list.

 

[Bob Aberton]

Just to point it out, in the LOTR series, both Orthanc and Gondor appear to be magically fortified, if you read the discriptions of the ("Orthanc-stone, hard and impregnable"), AND Gondor & Helm's Deep get attacked with magical blasting powder and an enchanted ram, Grond.