Enervation

[Hypersmurf]

Seriously though, it did seem like you were asking people to do a lot of work just to comprehend your point (looking up the rules relating to your various questions), when you could have instead restated it with about the same number of words in a way that would have been less exclusionary in nature and in which would have furthered the discussion more. Whatever your point was, I felt it would have been more helpful to just outright make it.

But what if the point isn't my opinion, but their opinion?

The answer to the Smite question is important to answering the original caster level question; different answers to the Smite question yield different results on the original question.

So I don't see that asking the Smite question is unhelpful.

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Which is to say, if I don't understand something and read the answer, I may get it, or I may not. If I don't understand something and do some actual thinking of my own to figure it out, there's a better chance that I will come to understand what's going on.

Or, as Terry Pratchett put it - Give a man a fire, keep him warm for a day...

(It also reminds me of an exchange from Bujold's Shards of Victory:

"North or south?"

"An interesting question. How would you answer it?"

"I had a teacher who used to reflect back my questions that way. I thought it was the Socratic method, and it impressed me immensely, until I found out he used it whenever he didn't know the answer.")

-Hyp.

 

[Quasqueton]

I'd like to state, I'm here asking for an answer, not a lesson. (Even if the answers are just opinions.)

Quasqueton

 

[Mistwell]

I believe Hyp is a big fan of the Socratic Method.

Which is to say, if I don't understand something and read the answer, I may get it, or I may not. If I don't understand something and do some actual thinking of my own to figure it out, there's a better chance that I will come to understand what's going on. The "more work" is actually a good thing, which is the real reason teachers give homework.

Cheers,
Vurt

Hey now, I did my hard time in 3 years of Law School and then taught a bit as well. I know what the Socratic method is. And it's a tool used when one person is in a superior position of knowledge to another person or group of people. A student doesn't ever use the method, only the teacher.

If Hyp's point was that he felt he knew the rules better than everyone else and therefore he needed to teach us all about the rules, then he's being arrogant and deserved to be called out for it. He knows the rules quite well, but not by so much more that he's reached a level where he needs to teach others the wisdom of his years in rules intepretation by asking questions in response to questions in rules threads.

However, knowing a bit about Hyp, I don't think it's because he is arrogant, and therefore must assume he wasn't using the Socratic method, but was instead being lazy, or curious, or something else.

Hyp had a point. He felt that a set of other rules outcomes might change depending on how one rules on Enervatiop. I think it's fair to ask him to name how he thinks they might change, rather than being lazy or curious and asking other people to name how they think those other rules will change.

If he is willing to pose the questions, he should be first in line to offer his opinion on the answers. And since coming up with an answer requires a bit of time to look up some rules, I think the burden is fairly put on him to do that grunt work first. If nothing else, it will make it a lot easier for other people to offer their opinions if they see how Hyp thinks things might change based on some real numbers and averages.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I'd like to state, I'm here asking for an answer, not a lesson. (Even if the answers are just opinions.)

Well:

Does a caster lose one highest-level spell per enervation? Or per negative level (1d4 per enervation)?

We just need to draw a box around the bit explaining negative levels.

You point your finger and utter the incantation, releasing a black ray of crackling negative energy that suppresses the life force of any living creature it strikes. You must make a ranged touch attack to hit. If the attack succeeds, the subject gains 1d4 negative levels.

If the subject has at least as many negative levels as HD, it dies. Each negative level gives a creature a –1 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, ability checks, and effective level (for determining the power, duration, DC, and other details of spells or special abilities).

Additionally, a spellcaster loses one spell or spell slot from his or her highest available level. Negative levels stack.

Assuming the subject survives, it regains lost levels after a number of hours equal to your caster level (maximum 15 hours). Usually, negative levels have a chance of permanently draining the victim’s levels, but the negative levels from enervation don’t last long enough to do so.

An undead creature struck by the ray gains 1d4x5 temporary hit points for 1 hour.

The bits in yellow are explanation of negative levels. The other bits are explanation of Enervation.

So one spell per negative level.

-Hyp.

 

[Mistwell]

But what if the point isn't my opinion, but their opinion?

The answer to the Smite question is important to answering the original caster level question; different answers to the Smite question yield different results on the original question.

So I don't see that asking the Smite question is unhelpful.

-Hyp.

It's unhelpful if you are unwilling to be the first to answer your own questions. Posting the text of the relevant rules might be useful as well (like you did for the spell itself just now), as would offerring a specific example with average and min/max numbers as well.

If you think the answers to your questions change depending on one of two or three different stated answers to the Enervation question, then spell it out how you think it works for each of those options. I just don't think you should make others do your work just to participate in a discussion with you.

 

[ElectricDragon]

Wizard 3 caster level is class level. Paladin spell-casting level is class level/2.

The Paladin-4's Smite Evil would deal +3 damage.

The Paladin-4/Monk-7's Smite Evil would deal +3 damage; the Wholeness of Body ability would heal 12 hp; assuming a 12 or higher Cha, Lay on Hands would heal 3 times the Cha bonus; Turn undead would work as if 0th level cleric; Aura of Good would be 3rd level; and he would lose his only spell (unless his Wisdom is 20 or higher, in which case his caster level would be 1). This is all in addition to:
as frankthedm said:

-1 on all skill checks and ability checks.
-1 on attack rolls and saving throws.
-5 hit points.

Ciao
Dave

 

[Infiniti2000]

Remember that negative levels, along with ability damage, is considered to be 'damage' per Complete Arcane - hence why Enervation is a weaponlike spell that can be used to crit or sneak attack.

I don't remember that. I don't use that source. Enervation cannot be critted (if I may phrase it that way).

Damage, unlike penalties, generally stacks.

Agreed. Now prove using the core rules that negative levels are damage.

How is caster level for a wizard-3 determined? How about for a paladin-4?

I don't understand what your notation 'wizard-3' means. Are you saying "3rd level wizard" or "wizard with 3 negative levels?"

 

[Hypersmurf]

It's unhelpful if you are unwilling to be the first to answer your own questions. Posting the text of the relevant rules might be useful as well (like you did for the spell itself just now), as would offerring a specific example with average and min/max numbers as well.

There's no average or min/max numbers in any of the questions I asked; none of them are random numeric effects.

I just don't think you should make others do your work just to participate in a discussion with you.

Would you find it more acceptable if I started a new thread asking the same questions?

-Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The Paladin-4/Monk-7's Smite Evil would deal +3 damage; the Wholeness of Body ability would heal 12 hp...

But the note says "When the creature's level is used in a calculation..."

Isn't the creature's level "11", in the case of the Pal4/Mnk7?

Does the class level in one class, for a multiclassed character, fit the concept of 'the creature's level'?

I don't use that source.

Makes rogues happier, I assume; they can use their Ray of Frost to sneak attack white dragons for +Xd6 untyped damage instead of +Xd6 cold damage...?

And vampire rogues even happier - 1d4 + Xd6 points of Con drain if they can manage a sneak attack with Blood Drain...

-Hyp.