Enlightened Fist vs. Sacred Fist

[Deset Gled]

Are the Enlightened Fist and Sacred Fist PrCs balanced with each other? How do you think they compare with other monk/caster combinations (or even just a straight caster with a few well picked feats and spells)?

Personally, I think the Enlightened Fist got the shaft. It has some better special abilities, but they just aren't good enough to make up for the extreme loss of BAB and hefty ability score requirements. The Sacred Fist, OTOH, gets a much nicer BAB, doesn't have as high of casting requirements to enter, and gets to double dip on the benefits of a high wisdom score.

Thoughts?

 

[Peter Gibbons]

Personally, I think the Enlightened Fist got the shaft. It has some better special abilities, but they just aren't good enough to make up for the extreme loss of BAB and hefty ability score requirements. The Sacred Fist, OTOH, gets a much nicer BAB, doesn't have as high of casting requirements to enter, and gets to double dip on the benefits of a high wisdom score.

Interesting. I concluded just the opposite. The Enlightened Fist definitely gets better class abilities, better (i.e., arcane) spells, doesn't suffer from the lame restriction on multiclassing, and isn't prohibited from using weapons as needed.

Sure, the Sacred Fist benefits from the nice monk/cleric synergies, but that doesn't really count in the analysis because you could use the same logic to claim that a monk/cleric isn't "balanced" versus a monk/wizard. As hybrid monk/cleric and monk/wizard classes go, both Fists are pretty well balanced (with each other and any other classes), IMO--at least, if you ignore the special restrictions they saddled Sacred Fists with but wisely dropped from the Enlightened Fist writeup.

 

[RigaMortus2]

Don't forget to compare it to the Fist of Zuoken (XPH)!

 

[Deset Gled]

Don't forget to compare it to the Fist of Zuoken (XPH)!

I haven't read much of the XPH, but I wouldn't be surprised if a Monk/Psion or Monk/Psionic Warrior outclassed a monk/caster of any type. I remember in 3.0 psionics, a psionic warrior could a much more viable monk than an actual monk in many cases.

 

[nimisgod]

I've seen an Enlightened Fist do quite well, myself, though said Fist was extensively powergamed. Polymorphing into the Wartroll or the Cave Troll helps a lot.

 

[Shin Okada]

You can make a nice Enlightened Fist from Monk/Sorcerer by using Ascetic Mage feat (Complete Adventurer), Arcane Strike feat (Complete Warrior) and Wraithstrike spell (Complete Adventurer). He can make awesome attacks if he spends a lot of spell slots per turn. But if he doesn't he is a 2nd-class mage combined with weaker monk (ouch) .

Sacred Fist is tougher (regarding saves and hp) and can fight well without spending much resources (better BAB). He can also cast Greater Magic Weapon onto his fist. His good BAB makes him much better in melee comparing to single class monk. And he can cast spells. Quite nice.

IMHO both of them are balanced well. Though comparing an arcane caster against a cleric is difficult.

And they are rather nice prestige classes though they are based on monk class. Be sure not to give them too much monk levels. And try to maximize casting abilities. Usually, only 1 monk level is the best build. 2, if you really want Evasion.

 

[Blaque]

Personally, I think Warmage/Monk makes a good Enlightened Fist as well. You pretty much have a slew of heavy-damage to through about with a lot of energy-piercing damage to boot. Pretty neat. You get a little better HD along the road too, and Warmage's Edge.

Another idea, if you want simaller synergies, is Battle Sorcerer (UA)/Monk. You cast less spells, but with the feats mentioend above like Arcane Strike,t hey add up. And you also get the advantages of the HD and BAB synergies that the Cleric/Monk gets.

As for the Psionic Fist (the SRD name for the Fist of Zuon), gotta check. Seeing as how they redid psionics entirely from 3.0-3.5, you have to take it in its own accoutn for 3.5 games. Check out the psionic stuff on d20srd.org for those wanting to compare, since its there as an SRD PrC.

Fear the acronyms! Stuff.

 

[green slime]

IMO, the sacred fist is overpowered. It gives away Fighter BAB, Cleric spellcasting, and Monk unarmed abilities. All for a non-existant cost. Combat Casting may not be the most ultimate feat, but it isn't exactly a waste of space either, considering that it grants 8 levels of divine spellcasting over 10 levels. The other prerequisites are things a monk would/could obtain anyway. IMO the Fighter BAB is the clincher.

 

[Shin Okada]

Well, if you compare a Sacred Fist to a pure Monk, Sacred fist may seem to be too powerful. But if you compare Sacred Fist to a pure Cleric, it does not seem that good. Not bad, but I don't say that is stronger than a pure cleric, or other melee cleric type prestige classes.

For example,

Pure 15th-level cleric ... spells as a 15th-level cleric/BAB of +11.
Monk 1/Cleric 4/Sacred Fist 10 ... spells as a 12th-level cleric/BAB+13. Cannot use magic weapons
Cleric 7/Warpriest 8 ... spells as a 11th-level cleric/BAB+13. Can use Martial Weapons.

And only the Sacred fist has lowered Turn Undead ability. For me, those 3 seems to be balanced.

 

[green slime]

Well, if you compare a Sacred Fist to a pure Monk, Sacred fist may seem to be too powerful. But if you compare Sacred Fist to a pure Cleric, it does not seem that good. Not bad, but I don't say that is stronger than a pure cleric, or other melee cleric type prestige classes.

For example,

Pure 15th-level cleric ... spells as a 15th-level cleric/BAB of +11.
Monk 1/Cleric 4/Sacred Fist 10 ... spells as a 12th-level cleric/BAB+13. Cannot use magic weapons
Cleric 7/Warpriest 8 ... spells as a 11th-level cleric/BAB+13. Can use Martial Weapons.

And only the Sacred fist has lowered Turn Undead ability. For me, those 3 seems to be balanced.

Its the feats that do it, I think.

Intuitive attack (works with unarmed Strike), Divine feats (you got no better use for your turn ability anyway), Wisdom bonus to AC.

And it is the cleric class which is too good, I'll give you that. Maybe monks should have full BAB to start with....