ENnies V - and beyond...
- Thread starter Michael Morris
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Trying to live up to your title?Crothian said:
Check some of the discussion between AaronLoeb and myself on pages 4-6 of this thread, plus Umbran and Kajamba Lion on page 9.To summarize, allowing voters to assign a score to each product is overkill for the end result we're after, and is bound to lead to all sorts of problems. Many of these problems can be avoided by switching to a *ranking* of the candidates, or simple allowing multiple up-down votes.
In practice, we'd probably want to use a ranking system, in part because that has the most natural way to represent "don't know" votes - simply don't give them a rank. If we do decide on ranking instead of scoring, there are still various ways the votes can be combined to give a 1st and 2nd place winner. (*)
(And yes, up-down votes could be seen as a degenerate form of scoring, but in practice it will behave very different in many respects.)
(*) In an ideal world, we'd probably use something like Condorcet Voting, at the risk of everybody going "Huh?" In practice, Instant Runoff Voting (which simulates a series of runoff votes, each round dropping the candiate with the least #1 votes) probably makes most sense. Either way, we need to make sure "don't care" votes are handled fairly (**)
(**) For your favorite definition of "fair", of course...
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Lela
First Post
What about the judges award and fan award idea? Each catagory would have two awards, one from the judges and one from the fans.Umbran said:
Personally, I'd run it something like this,
- The judges awards would be voted on by the judges, who have read all the products submitted. This would apply to those who want the absolute best quality, regardless of how many people are impacted by said quality.
- The fans award would be vote based, with unlimited votes. Meaning, if you like three of the five products then you can vote for those three, and not for the other two. This would allow for the fans opinions to count, whether they like it or dislike it. If they don't know about a product (likely), they generally don't want to vote for it. So they don't.
MavrickWeirdo
First Post
First, I actually read all 11 pages before replying.
My opinions,
1) I think that how the voting is done is an important issue. I understand enough math/statistics to get the general idea of what people are talking about. However I think that it might be a good idea to give the voting (technique) issue it's own thread.
2) Who gets to vote?
EN World does not charge a fee to voters, so anyone is allowed to join. If people "outside EN World" feel there is a bias against non-D20 products they can join and start opening threads about non-D20 games they like. I have never seen a "Feng Shui" thread closed because it isn't D20.
(The Hugo awards does charge a voter's fee BTW, it is included in Worldcon admission, non-attending mebers have to pay a fee to vote.)
On the other hand not everyone has a computer. I realize that, to me at least, EN World is a web based community, but does that mean we only want the opinions of people with ready computer access?
It certainly seems fair to me that if Gencon is contributing money then atendees should get to vote.
3) Who is included
Personally I like the D20 system. I prefer "fantasy" games to "science fiction" games (so I would prefer a "Gurps fantasy" game to a "D20 Modern" game).
Splitting up D20 and non-D20 awards is a bad idea for the same reason splitting awards for Fantasy content and SF content awards is a bad idea. The ENnies should be about more than personal taste.
What alot of people have been saying is that it is important that the ENnies represent quality, not just popularity. If the best artwork on the shelf that year is a non-D20 title, then giving the award to the 2nd best artwork because it happens to be a D20 product is a hollow victory.
4) Judge selection,
Conaill at one point suggested that
I do not think it is necessary for a judge to be an expert in every catagory. We are giving out awards for which products communicate best. If a product expresses itself well, then it doesn't take an expert to understand it.
5) Categories
I like the list of categories suggested by Dextra,
personally I would combine campaign setting and setting supplement. I can also see combining art interior and art cover, but that is probably a "sacred cow".
6) Ceremony
I also do not go to GenCon, but I am in favor of the Ceremony. Interestingly enough, the only pictures I have seen of the ceremony itself were on a link I found on the Wizards messageboards.
I think that is most of it for now
My opinions,
1) I think that how the voting is done is an important issue. I understand enough math/statistics to get the general idea of what people are talking about. However I think that it might be a good idea to give the voting (technique) issue it's own thread.
2) Who gets to vote?
EN World does not charge a fee to voters, so anyone is allowed to join. If people "outside EN World" feel there is a bias against non-D20 products they can join and start opening threads about non-D20 games they like. I have never seen a "Feng Shui" thread closed because it isn't D20.
(The Hugo awards does charge a voter's fee BTW, it is included in Worldcon admission, non-attending mebers have to pay a fee to vote.)
On the other hand not everyone has a computer. I realize that, to me at least, EN World is a web based community, but does that mean we only want the opinions of people with ready computer access?
It certainly seems fair to me that if Gencon is contributing money then atendees should get to vote.
3) Who is included
Personally I like the D20 system. I prefer "fantasy" games to "science fiction" games (so I would prefer a "Gurps fantasy" game to a "D20 Modern" game).
Splitting up D20 and non-D20 awards is a bad idea for the same reason splitting awards for Fantasy content and SF content awards is a bad idea. The ENnies should be about more than personal taste.
What alot of people have been saying is that it is important that the ENnies represent quality, not just popularity. If the best artwork on the shelf that year is a non-D20 title, then giving the award to the 2nd best artwork because it happens to be a D20 product is a hollow victory.
4) Judge selection,
Conaill at one point suggested that
I do not think it is necessary for a judge to be an expert in every catagory. We are giving out awards for which products communicate best. If a product expresses itself well, then it doesn't take an expert to understand it.
5) Categories
I like the list of categories suggested by Dextra,
personally I would combine campaign setting and setting supplement. I can also see combining art interior and art cover, but that is probably a "sacred cow".
6) Ceremony
I also do not go to GenCon, but I am in favor of the Ceremony. Interestingly enough, the only pictures I have seen of the ceremony itself were on a link I found on the Wizards messageboards.
I think that is most of it for now
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It's only partially a question of expertise though, it's also a matter of interest. For example, I might want to volunteer to judge, say, the cartography award. But I would have *no* interest in judging the Monster Supplement category, and I don't think I would feel qualified to judge the "Best Adventure " category because my DM'ing experience is fairly minimal.MavrickWeirdo said:
Should my particular mix of interests and expertise prohibit me from judging the Cartography category, one for which I do think I would make a reasonable judge? Why would we want to to force judges to judge every single category, especially if that takes so much time that some judges have to take off time from work to do so?
Let's take the current set of Ennie judges... all fine and distinguished gentlemen, but I frankly have no clue what their artistic capabilities or leanings are. For all I know, they could all have gotten F's on "coloring within the lines" in kindergarten. Or worse, they could all be huge anime fans, in which case I would *definitely* not want to vote for them to judge the art categories!
Even if only to make things easier on the judges, I think it would make a lot of sense to split up the judging duties more...
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Conaill said:
It may make things easier on the judges, but it would make most other aspects of dealing with the awards more complicated - choosing judges, shipping products to judges, speaking among and to judges. The more judges there are, the more difficult coordination becomes overall. I am not convinced there's a savings there.
In terms of judgement, there's somehting to be said for having more specific judges, but, there's also a solid argument that judges should be "well rounded". For example - if you really feel you are only qualified to judge cartogtraphy, and have minimal GMing experience, that suggests a narrowness of focus such that perhaps your judgement isn't really similar to that of the GMs who use the maps.
Crothian
First Post
Conaill said:
As one of the two judges (out of five) that took time off of work for this allow me to say it wasn't becasue I had to. I could have worked and got the judging done, but I had vacation days to use and taking the days off just made the job easier. So, it was a personal choice since my situation allowed me to do this, it was not something that had to happen.
For all I know, they could all have gotten F's on "coloring within the lines" in kindergarten. Or worse, they could all be huge anime fans, in which case I would *definitely* not want to vote for them to judge the art categories!
My artistic abilities suck. That doesn't mean I can't tell a good picture from a bad one. I'm not an anime fan, but I don't think that would matter as some of the anime books we got had some of the best production values. I don't think a judges talent in an area matters on if they can judge it. I've taken art appriciation and art history college courses. So, while I can't draw a stick figure, I do have the ability to recognize art that I like.
MavrickWeirdo
First Post
Conaill said:It's only partially a question of expertise though, it's also a matter of interest. Let's take the current set of Ennie judges... all fine and distinguished gentlemen, but I frankly have no clue what their artistic capabilities or leanings are. For all I know, they could all have gotten F's on "coloring within the lines" in kindergarten. Or worse, they could all be huge anime fans, in which case I would *definitely* not want to vote for them to judge the art categories!
Actually this is exactly the opinion my comment opposes. I happen to have a Bachelor of Fine Arts degree myself, and I can say with some certainty that the best "Art" are the pieces you don't need a degree to appreciate. If it "jumps-off-the-shelf-and-grabs-you", then it is quality work (or it is the Monster book of Monsters).
As far as the intrest issue; you need to have judges who can tell the difference between personal taste and quality.
(A good test for this. If you can name something that you admit is well done, even though you don't like it personally, then you can tell the difference.)
MavrickWeirdo
First Post
Now for my "moving forward" suggestions.
1) I think in late september or early october we should call a volunteer to be "ENnies Chairperson".
Those who volunteer should have their head examined, but we would run out of canidates that way, so we will skip that part.
Then Enworld votes on a chairperson the same way that we vote on Judges.
Once we have a Chairperson, they should (at their discretion) accept volunteer assistance to run the ENnies (possibly a voting coordinator, a ceremony/tech coordinator, ect.)
I do not think that "ENworld Press" should be in charge of the ENnies, however I have no objection to Dextra running for Chairperson. If he won he could accept any volunteer assistance he chooses (including people who happen to work for ENP). I realize I am splitting hairs, but lots of "professional organizations" make the same distinctions.
2) "The Booth" should be seperate from "The ENnies". My appologies to Morrus on this issue, but I think it should be an "EN World Booth". I am in favor of it looking good (both the booth, and the voulnteers) it should coordinate with the "The ENnies" and ENP, but I think that the ENnies Chairperson will have enough to do without being in charge of the booth also.
I think that if intead of selling "EN World" T-Shirts at or near cost (Which is an assumption on my part), they should be priced to make a profit, and then that money can be used to fund the booth.
3) As far as the Origins are concerned, I do not see them as "Competition".
In SF/F Fandom there are the (previously mentioned) Hugo Awards, which are a fan award. There is also the Nebula Awards, which is a peer award voted on by professional writers. They both seek to recognize good work. Some years the same story wins both, some years different stories win. Each is valued for what it is.
I am aware that Origins has "people's choice" catagories, but I think they are primarily a Peer Award. ENnies are primarily a Fan Award. Both can exist without either being "better" than the other.
1) I think in late september or early october we should call a volunteer to be "ENnies Chairperson".
Those who volunteer should have their head examined, but we would run out of canidates that way, so we will skip that part.
Then Enworld votes on a chairperson the same way that we vote on Judges.
Once we have a Chairperson, they should (at their discretion) accept volunteer assistance to run the ENnies (possibly a voting coordinator, a ceremony/tech coordinator, ect.)
I do not think that "ENworld Press" should be in charge of the ENnies, however I have no objection to Dextra running for Chairperson. If he won he could accept any volunteer assistance he chooses (including people who happen to work for ENP). I realize I am splitting hairs, but lots of "professional organizations" make the same distinctions.
2) "The Booth" should be seperate from "The ENnies". My appologies to Morrus on this issue, but I think it should be an "EN World Booth". I am in favor of it looking good (both the booth, and the voulnteers) it should coordinate with the "The ENnies" and ENP, but I think that the ENnies Chairperson will have enough to do without being in charge of the booth also.
I think that if intead of selling "EN World" T-Shirts at or near cost (Which is an assumption on my part), they should be priced to make a profit, and then that money can be used to fund the booth.
3) As far as the Origins are concerned, I do not see them as "Competition".
In SF/F Fandom there are the (previously mentioned) Hugo Awards, which are a fan award. There is also the Nebula Awards, which is a peer award voted on by professional writers. They both seek to recognize good work. Some years the same story wins both, some years different stories win. Each is valued for what it is.
I am aware that Origins has "people's choice" catagories, but I think they are primarily a Peer Award. ENnies are primarily a Fan Award. Both can exist without either being "better" than the other.
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Crothian
First Post
1) We can't let the Chairpewrson be voted on. I am sorry but it is too an important a position and there is too much growth and responsibility for it to goto the popular choice. Perhaps in a few years when things stabalize we can do that. And Dextra is a she, just FYI.
2) The booth is given to us by Gen Con for the ENnies. So, I think we can't have a free booth and then switch it to a different use. Also, we can't sell anything at the booth. Third, I fully agree and have also put forth the idea of having a single person in charge of the booth and making sure that is their only responsibility.
3) I see the Origins awards as another award and not a compitition. Its not like publishers can't enter both. I'd actually like to open up a dialogue with them at some point but that needs to wait for the time being.
2) The booth is given to us by Gen Con for the ENnies. So, I think we can't have a free booth and then switch it to a different use. Also, we can't sell anything at the booth. Third, I fully agree and have also put forth the idea of having a single person in charge of the booth and making sure that is their only responsibility.
3) I see the Origins awards as another award and not a compitition. Its not like publishers can't enter both. I'd actually like to open up a dialogue with them at some point but that needs to wait for the time being.
