Entitlement and "standard equipment"

[Greenfield]

So do you have some alternate rules or guidelines for determining what sort of equipment a higher level character can start with?

I would have no problem allowing a character to start with any equipment that falls within those guidelines, but regardless of where / how he came across the equipment, it should still count as a part of that wealth by level guideline number...

A new character coming in will have whatever his budget will allow, I have no problem with that. He earned that stuff while he was earning whatever level he's coming in with.

Once in play, though, the Magic Pencil of Anything has to be put away, and he has to live within the bounds of the game world. Items are available, or not, based on what happens in the game. There is no Wizmart in any city in the game world.

 

[Greyfeld]

It's to be expected that your players are greedy, unreasonable, and demanding. They want it all and they'll cry like children if they think it will work. I can't count the number of times one of my players has asked for free gold for doing basically nothing. "I rolled a 26 on my Perform (Dance) skill in the tavern, can I panhandle enough gold to upgrade my longbow to masterwork?" Not unless you already have 299 gold and 64 copper.

To be fair, there ARE rules regarding making coin using perform checks. That said, to make a night's worth of earnings, I would probably rule that they would need several hours free to do so. Shaking their ass on the street corner for five minutes doesn't really cut it.

 

[Michael Silverbane]

A new character coming in will have whatever his budget will allow, I have no problem with that. He earned that stuff while he was earning whatever level he's coming in with.

Once in play, though, the Magic Pencil of Anything has to be put away, and he has to live within the bounds of the game world. Items are available, or not, based on what happens in the game. There is no Wizmart in any city in the game world.

I thought that you were saying something other than this. I misunderstood.

Something that I am curious about... In the games that you (general you) run, would it be possible (or likely) for a PC to be able to negotiate with a specific NPC to get a particular item. i.e. Can PC Drake, go chat up Archibald the wizard, and commission a ring of protection, for instance (assuming that the wizard Archibald is capable of creating such an item and appropriate terms can be negotiated)?

This is one method by which I allow characters to gain access to items. They negotiate a price (which usually also includes some sort of a side-adventure) with an NPC spellcaster that they know and trust. After paying the price and doing whatever else is necessary, the npc makes the item for them.

 

[Hassassin]

So, in short, there aren't a lot of high level types around who can craft higher powered items.

Just out of curiosity, how do you retcon newly created 8th level spellcasters into the world? I know I've sometimes struggled with this.

 

[Mark CMG]

I want to make sure I understand the OP correctly.

So, a new level 8 character wants the Healing Belt of a previous player's character, and the previous player is willing to give it to him.

The issue is one of players receiving freebees. Got it.

A starting level 8 character should have 27,000gp according the the DM guide, no doubt your DM can adjust to taste, but a healing belt costs 750gp. That's what, less than 3% of all his wealth? I as a DM would point out to the player that this is pennies to him, that there aren't any freebees, and just pay for the belt.

I would do this but, since I cringe at telling a player that a PC cannot try to do something if they wish to do so, I would also ask after the new PC is all equipped and transporting the dead former PC back to his final resting place if the paladin is stealing the magic item from the corpse. I would then deal with the consequences in-game.

 

[Greenfield]

I thought that you were saying something other than this. I misunderstood.

Something that I am curious about... In the games that you (general you) run, would it be possible (or likely) for a PC to be able to negotiate with a specific NPC to get a particular item. i.e. Can PC Drake, go chat up Archibald the wizard, and commission a ring of protection, for instance (assuming that the wizard Archibald is capable of creating such an item and appropriate terms can be negotiated)?

This is one method by which I allow characters to gain access to items. They negotiate a price (which usually also includes some sort of a side-adventure) with an NPC spellcaster that they know and trust. After paying the price and doing whatever else is necessary, the npc makes the item for them.

There's nothing wrong with trying to find or have made any item at all. Finding someone who can make it may be an issue.

One way to limit the "Wizmart" aspect of a game (and I do believe it should be limited) is to look at one specific aspect of custom item creation: The strictly limited supply of EXP available to NPCs.

While this probably deserves it's own topic, I'll give a brief overview.

Presume a city, a county seat if you will (as in, the city where the ruling Count resides). Presume a modest number of item crafters, appropriate to the size of the city as laid out in the rules. Presume also that the ruling Count also has issues to deal with, issues that will occasionally require magic scrolls, healing potions, wands and other magic items. Like any consumable resource, he'll want to stockpile a few to help with that next border war, monstrous raid, or perhaps to hand out as rewards the next time he has to hire some adventurers.

In tense times, his demand for magic items will probably consume a good amount of the available EXP the resident magic types are able to earn through RP encounters (since they're not adventuring, killing monsters, or doing other dangerous undertakings that normally accelerate EXP accumulation.

So, how much does that leave for their "regular customer"? For their own advancement, or private projects?

Now along comes an adventurer, someone from another land who owes no allegiance to this city or it's people, and he wants to commission a high priced (and therefore high EXP) item.

Does said adventurer need permission from the local authorities, the church or the Count himself to divert so much of the artificer's limited energies to their private project?

For most in-town types, during peace time, how many actual challenges do they face? At 50 Exp per character level per significant RP encounter, it could take such a person a long time to save up enough to make your Ring of Protection from Self or Staff of Ultimate Niftiness. Even longer if a significant amount of that Exp is already earmarked for the Count's pet project.

I find it a good idea to essentially give such people a budget. Crafting the item you want may only take a few days, by the book, but it might take him a month to get enough EXP together to finish it. He only earns X amount per week, after all, and the Count has an order already in progress. You'll just have to wait your turn...

 

[Greenfield]

Just out of curiosity, how do you retcon newly created 8th level spellcasters into the world? I know I've sometimes struggled with this.

It's a serious issue, particularly in a world like ours where such people are supposed to be rare.

I've had to consider this on a personal level as well, since I'm expecting my current character to bite it in the near future.

My own personal answer is that he's been in hiding, essentially dodging the draft, and the reason he's now hitting the road with these other strange people he just met is that his cover has been blown and he needs to skip town, fast. He'll use a false name, and will try to downplay his power level, at least for a while.

Over all, he isn't out looking for fame and fortune. In fact, he'll forgo part of the "fortune" if he can also avoid the "fame" part of the deal.

Beyond that, as a DM, I generally determine that the party won't just conveniently bump into a wandering Archmage while lost in the wilderness, the very day after their good friend died. We specifically have a resident NPC rogue who tags along with the party, and when someone's character dies they get to run him until we can find a good entry point for their new character. This gives everyone time make the transition a smooth one, and to lay the groundwork for their new PC to exist.

 

[was]

Absolutely no freebies...if they want it, they can buy it with their starting wealth

 

[Greenfield]

Just to clarify: The player of the new PC hasn't asked for the item. This was strictly the idea of the other player.

My thoughts that prompted this thread was the idea he seemed to have that certain items were so useful (read: under priced) that everyone should have one, and that the new character was somehow entitled to have one.

I haven't seen the new PC yet, and have no idea if he spent money on a Healing Belt or not. That's his decision, and whether he choose not to, or thought they were unavailable or somehow inappropriate, if he doesn't have one it's because of his own decisions.

My issue was strictly with the attitude of the other player.

 

[Michael Silverbane]

There's nothing wrong with trying to find or have made any item at all. Finding someone who can make it may be an issue.

One way to limit the "Wizmart" aspect of a game (and I do believe it should be limited) is to look at one specific aspect of custom item creation: The strictly limited supply of EXP available to NPCs.

While this probably deserves it's own topic, I'll give a brief overview.

Presume a city, a county seat if you will (as in, the city where the ruling Count resides). Presume a modest number of item crafters, appropriate to the size of the city as laid out in the rules. Presume also that the ruling Count also has issues to deal with, issues that will occasionally require magic scrolls, healing potions, wands and other magic items. Like any consumable resource, he'll want to stockpile a few to help with that next border war, monstrous raid, or perhaps to hand out as rewards the next time he has to hire some adventurers.

In tense times, his demand for magic items will probably consume a good amount of the available EXP the resident magic types are able to earn through RP encounters (since they're not adventuring, killing monsters, or doing other dangerous undertakings that normally accelerate EXP accumulation.

So, how much does that leave for their "regular customer"? For their own advancement, or private projects?

Now along comes an adventurer, someone from another land who owes no allegiance to this city or it's people, and he wants to commission a high priced (and therefore high EXP) item.

Does said adventurer need permission from the local authorities, the church or the Count himself to divert so much of the artificer's limited energies to their private project?

For most in-town types, during peace time, how many actual challenges do they face? At 50 Exp per character level per significant RP encounter, it could take such a person a long time to save up enough to make your Ring of Protection from Self or Staff of Ultimate Niftiness. Even longer if a significant amount of that Exp is already earmarked for the Count's pet project.

I find it a good idea to essentially give such people a budget. Crafting the item you want may only take a few days, by the book, but it might take him a month to get enough EXP together to finish it. He only earns X amount per week, after all, and the Count has an order already in progress. You'll just have to wait your turn...

This is a pretty good solution to that problem. I require the PC in question to provide the XP.