[EOM] Houserule- Limit Spells / day?

[RandomUsernamehmimo71]

We've been playing with the revised EOm rules in our game since before they were officially released (Preview document), but we've run into some theoretical problems, with higher-level mages.

While I love the idea of a mage, and I used to love a Spellpoint system in general, I think it tends to break down, when you can have a high level caster pumping out 400 magic missiles in a single day.. I understand that this isn't a problem for Everyone, but particularly for our group, who is trying to keep the magic level in the world relatively minor, this tends to get to be more than we want to have flying around.. If 20th level casters can pump out that much spellage.. The world starts to become Very magically oriented..

So I've taken to thinking about it, and trying to balance things out a bit, and limit the overall spells, while not eliminating the ability for a mage to progress and grow, and stillb e more powerful over every level..

The best option I've come up with is to require a 0th level spell slot to be used, for each spell cast..

What this does is it limits the total number of /spells/ that can be cast each day, without limiting the power of them, beyond the already excellent limits in EOM (Mp, etc)..

It lets Mages cast more spells as they progress higher in level.. Both more powerful (More MP), and more frequently (as their 0th slots increases)..

I'd love any comments on this idea.

-Colin

 

[RangerWickett]

Hiya. I'd propose that it's not really an issue. However, if you are to do this, I'd need a little clarification. Mages only get (caster level + 2) cantrips per day. Would you limit them to casting only a total of that many spells total in a single day?

When you understand that, to emulate a core-rules 20th level wizard's magic missile (5d6 damage, medium range), you need a 6-MP spell (and you still don't get the instant hit, no save bonus), a 20th level mage could only 'magic missile' 50 times per day or so. Compared with a core wizard, the wizard could easily do the same. Or he could fire off 10 magic missiles and 10 fireballs and 10 cone of colds and 10 prismatic sprays and 5 meteor swarms.

The fact that spells don't scale by level but by MP cost makes a spell point system much less abusive. I am, of course, assuming you mean EOM revised. The original EOM was overpowered as you mention.

 

[Aaron2]

While I love the idea of a mage, and I used to love a Spellpoint system in general, I think it tends to break down, when you can have a high level caster pumping out 400 magic missiles in a single day.. I understand that this isn't a problem for Everyone, but particularly for our group, who is trying to keep the magic level in the world relatively minor, this tends to get to be more than we want to have flying around.. If 20th level casters can pump out that much spellage.. The world starts to become Very magically oriented..

A 20th level wizard casting MM all day is only doing 17.5 pts of damage per round. That is extremely sub-optimal; compare it to the +35 pts of one sneak attack by a 20th level rogue or the damage of a raging 20th level barbarian.

I find that the higher level spell, esp. Wish and Gate have are much better at increasing the magic level than lots of low level spells. I've considered letting wizards cast lower level spells at will since it saves game time.


Aaron

 

[Kavyk]

Well

If you're trying to keep the magic level down, I can understand wanting to implement a limit of some sort. If you make each spell cost 1 free cantrip in addition to everything else, the limit would be 22 spells per day, which would be half of what a Core Wizard can cast. You might want to double the number of cantrips, which would make it 44, a not unreasonable number, and still a far cry from 400 magic missile equivalents.

If I were to choose a low magic campaign, that's the limit I think I would set. It's easy to go through 40 slots and over the course of a single session, 22 spells just wouldn't be enough. Since Mages are so dependent upon spells, it is too low of a restriction. You'd end up with a mage who had spell points left over and nothing to do with them, which would be very frustrating from a player's persepective, I imagine. It would be the equivalent of telling a fighter he could only make 22 attacks during the day. At least with 44, the odds seem better that they'd run out of MP before they ran out of 0-level spell slots and it wouldn't feel artificially limited, which is the idea.


Edited:
And I took too long to reply, but here's another opinion on the matter.

 

[RandomUsernamehmimo71]

Thank you for your replies..

I am using the Revised system, and I like it very much for that reason, I think it is far more balanced than the original EOM system.. In answer to RangerWickett's post, though, I think I must have been unclear..
It's not that I think they are too powerful as compared with Book wizards.. It's that they /could/ cast too many spells each day.

The reason I clarify this is that I know they could cast 50 6 MP versions of a spell, but they still certainly have the option of casting 200+ 1MPs.
Perhaps Magic Missile was a bad example to compare it to, as it's so broken in D20..

As I understand it, A 20th level Mage could invoke force 0, with a 30ft range, (1+1 = 2mp), 180 times in one day..

I don't have a problem with them doing 50 6MP spells.. The idea is to try to skew them toward using the higher spell, or at least reduce the total number each day..

For people who are casting as you describe, it wouldn't have a major effect.. They should still be able to cast a large number of 6MP spells.. But it stops someone from just throwing out a 1MP spell every round.
Again, that might work fine in Forgotten Realms, but in our game, we're trying to keep magic more reserved, more cautious..
Having someone casting 370 1MP spells in a day takes away from that feel.

I like Kavyk's suggestion, and I had thought along a similar idea myself.. 22 spells might be far too low, and I'll grant that. I had thought that I might go through the Cantrip table, and modify that so it's always about even to how many spells a wizard gets each level..
But doubling it is a lot easier, and still works for the Half-levels.

Again, thank you for the replies, and I'd appreciate any further comments.
Colin

 

[RangerWickett]

Heh. This is the first time I've heard someone suggest a 'minimum MP per spell' limit. I suppose it is a nice, albeit rather unusual, flavor if high level mages only cast spells when it really matters, and it would explain why, for instance, Gandalf occasionally pulled out the big guns for Balrogs, but he didn't waste any lightning bolts on Orcs. I'll think on it.

Actually, one type of game I wanted to make possible was one where a mid- to high-level Mage could cast spells as readily as Fighters can swing their swords. Like how, if you've ever played Gauntlet, the wizard can cast dinky attack spells as much as he wants, and each spell is no stronger than a fighter's slash. I plan to have an 'arcane martial artist' type class in Lyceian Arcana that does just that.

 

[RandomUsernamehmimo71]

Heh. This is the first time I've heard someone suggest a 'minimum MP per spell' limit.

Just to clear up any confusion in the audience (such as my girlfriend who insists you misunderstand, although I disagree with her..)
I'm not proposing a literal Minimum MP, but this system would encourage higher level casting, by limiting the total number of spells per day.
Ie, if you only get 20 spells, why waste them with 20 1mps, when you could save them, until you need the big guns)

I suppose it is a nice, albeit rather unusual, flavor if high level mages only cast spells when it really matters, and it would explain why, for instance, Gandalf occasionally pulled out the big guns for Balrogs, but he didn't waste any lightning bolts on Orcs.

That's exactly the feel I'm going for, and a great way of putting it.

I'll think on it.

Actually, one type of game I wanted to make possible was one where a mid- to high-level Mage could cast spells as readily as Fighters can swing their swords. Like how, if you've ever played Gauntlet, the wizard can cast dinky attack spells as much as he wants, and each spell is no stronger than a fighter's slash. I plan to have an 'arcane martial artist' type class in Lyceian Arcana that does just that.

Thinking about it is all I could ever ask Well, that, and we could use it in our local game.

I certainly understand the type of game you're enjoying, and it's great to play that at times, but it's not really what we're focused on.. I try to run a tolkien-inspired game, with a similar feel.. Where magic is rare, but powerful.. I love the flexibility EOM provides, versus straight fantasy D20, and I think something along this line might help to bring it into line with our feel..

Just random thoughts,
Colin