[EPIC] A no saving throw, negative level dealing, HP stealing weapon?

[Chris Parker]

The SouldDrinker Epic Specific Weapon seems a bit unbalanced to me... especially if it works the way I think it does. And by a bit, I have to wonder how anything that could be energy drained would be a challange. (Description for the weapon is at the bottom for reference - and yes, this is posted in the right place, the bulk of this is questioning rules )

Putting the 2d4 negative levels / hit problem aside, I have to wonder about the temporary hit points. Essentially, you get 10d4 temporary hit points per hit (avg 25). Reading the description I have to wonder, do these stack?

(ah, going even further of topic here, but reading the epic application of the AutoHypnosis skill, I have another question, it says temporary hit points granted from that do not stack with temporary hit points granted from any _other_ source. Does that mean it stacks with itself?)

If the avg 25 HP regen per hit stacks, how come this ability apparently only increases the base price by 420K? Im assuming it adds the spell Energy Drain on at 5 uses a day price (which is what 'At Will' items effectively use, see link below). Spell level (9) * caster level (21) * 2000. This adds on 378K base cost. (ignoring material componets, etc etc)

Does this mean we could get a weapon that hit the enemy for Intensified Disintegrates? (spell level 6(+7 intensify, or less, with Improved Metamagic), caster level 27) Does +480 damage (40d6 base, 40x6=240. 240x2=480) per hit sound a _BIT_ over powered for +700K to the base cost?

Hell, even if you added the generic epic price hike, I, and any other melee character, would GLADLY save up 7Million for that weapon.

But, no DM would allow it. Partially because of the insane damage, partially from the lack of saving throws. Notice that? Theres a saving throw to remove the energy drain'ed level, but none to prevent it.
(Incidentally, my Iajitsu Master dual wields these things(katana versions, course). Our DM allows it. Hes also been throwing alot of Undead, Golems, and things that cant be drained at us lately. Wonder why...)

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Below is the souldrinker. This might also be a handy link for determining the cost of magical abilities on items...
http://www.systemreferencedocuments...h/magicitem/MAGIC_ITEM_GOLD_PIECE_VALUES.html

Souldrinker: This +5 bastard sword bestows 2d4 negative levels on its target whenever it deals damage, just as if its target had been struck by the energy drain spell. Each negative level bestowed grants the wielder 5 temporary hit points. One day after being struck, the subject must make a Fortitude save (DC 25) for each negative level or lose a level. If this sword’s power causes a character to have negative levels at least equal to his or her current level, the character is instantly slain and the wielder gains an additional 10 temporary hit points. Temporary hit points gained from this weapon last for a maximum of 1 hour.

Caster Level: 21st; Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Epic Magic Arms and Armor, Spell Focus (Necromancy), energy drain; Market Price: 478,335 gp; Cost to Create: 239,315 gp + 14,780 XP.

 

[aurance]

Balance is hard to gauge at epic levels. There are a lot of effects that kill or instantly or disable permanently if the target is not adequately prepared. At pre-epic levels, the focus is on an average-equipped character having at least some chance to survive any effect via saving throw, high AC, or whatever. At epic levels though, that chance is not a given for an average character. Many effects guarantee a rapid death if you don't have special protection and foreknowledge of the opponents you face.

I think this is ok, as epic level characters have immense defensive and regenerative capabilities as well as offensive capabilities, not to mention almost unlimited divination powers, whether mundane or magical. Simply, you find out your opponent has one of those swords, and you put some sort of negative energy protection on yourself. Barring that, your friends can resurrect you at a whim.

Your epic iaijutsu master *should* be able to mow down non-epic enemies with his magic blades - that's one of the paradigms of epic characters. But a good DM will acknowledge the same power in important epic NPC enemies and prepare them accordingly.

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

3.5 Death Ward, counters it. I don't think it's "unbalanced", especially at epic. (A bunch of quickened Enervations do about the same thing.)

True, anything that isn't prepared is going to get mowed down. But then again, anything will get mowed down by some sort of epic "paper, rock, or scissors" if they aren't prepared.

 

[Piratecat]

Temporary hit points never stack. Check out the bodyfeeder weapon quality in the XPH for a good example.

 

[ruleslawyer]

3.5 Death Ward, counters it. I don't think it's "unbalanced", especially at epic. (A bunch of quickened Enervations do about the same thing.)

True, anything that isn't prepared is going to get mowed down. But then again, anything will get mowed down by some sort of epic "paper, rock, or scissors" if they aren't prepared.

This hits the nail on the head. The souldrinker is going to be mostly useful against magically-weak monsters. Anyone who can afford the 56,000 gp for a death ward item will do so at epic levels, whether it be PC, NPC, dragon, fiend, or whatever.

Incidentally, absent reasons to the contrary, I suspect that the energy drain ability of the souldrinker also allows an SR check, since the spell does.

Finally, I don't know if you're right about the temporary hp not stacking, Pcat. After all, a creature with the energy drain special attack gains 5 temporary hp for "each negative level" it inflicts on an opponent; the souldrinker seems to give its wielder the same ability. What would "stacking" mean in this context? That one only gains temporary hp from a single drained level? In that case, why the word "each"? That one gains temporary hp from only a single attack? Then why is there no text to this effect under the description of the energy drain special ability, when most creatures with that ability drain only one or two levels per attack? Given all this, I'm reluctant to take an item description in the XPH, of all books, as gospel for the idea that temporary hp don't stack. Also, the phrase "temporary hp never stack" would preclude some rather obvious combos, such as rage + an aid spell, for example.

 

[Piratecat]

Here's the reference from the SRD, Ruleslawyer. Is there a reason why temporary hitpoints should work differently than described here? I could certainly be wrong, but I think I'm on fairly steady ground with my temporary hit point assertion.

Bodyfeeder: All feeder weapons have a special ability that functions only upon scoring a successful critical hit. A bodyfeeder weapon grants its wielder temporary hit points equal to the total damage dealt by a successful critical hit. These temporary hit points last for 10 minutes. Thus, if the wielder of a bodyfeeder weapon successfully scores a critical hit while the wielder still enjoys temporary hit points from a previous critical hit, the wielder gains only the better of the two values: either his current number of temporary hit points, or the new influx of temporary hit points, whichever is higher.
Strong psychometabolism; ML 12th; Craft Psionic Arms and Armor, claws of the vampire; Price +3 bonus.

 

[ruleslawyer]

Pcat: You're probably right, but I'm just reluctant to accept that the definitive explanation of the rule on temp hit points stacking is to be found in the (now-outmoded, thanks to the XPH) description of a non-core weapon under non-core rules in the SRD. Is there no general rule on temp hp stacking in the PHB/DMG/MM?

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

I personally don't allow temporary hps to stack from multiple sources. So a vampire can only have a maximum of 10 temp hps from its energy drain. (Generally this is offset by the fact that the PCs are attacking the vampire while it keeps getting its 10 temp hps each round + fast healing.)

The souldrinker would give a maximum of 50 hps (with 8 negative levels and a death), that does not stack with any other type of temporary hps.

 

[Piratecat]

Ruleslawyer, that description is from the XPH... so it may not be core, but it isn't outmoded.

 

[Ovinomancer]

I've always ruled that temp hit points stack as long as they are from different sources. IE two aid spells would only provide the better of the two generated values, by aid would stack with false life or glittering robes.