Epic Casters, How do you run with the pack?

[Telor]

My group and I got into a long discussion tonight about the flaws of the ELH; one of us is very close to 19 so we have a small reason to worry.

The main topics we discussed:
20Wiz/20Fig looks very different than a 20Fig/20Wiz explain in-game terms with logical and believable reasons why these two people would look any different.

Epic Spells are worse than level 9 spells. Look at all that is required to make and cast the Ruin spell, compare that to MeteorSwarm. While Epic Spells can exceed PHB spells and people must be powerful to wield such spells, how can any 'level 10' spell be blatantly less powerful (and cost a ridiculous amount of resources) than level 9 spells?

Say I'm a 15Sor/5Acm (archmage) why on Toril do I have to take 5 levels of Sor before I may receive my Bonus Epic Sorcerer Feats? Let's see what those 5 levels of Sor give me after I'm 20... woohoo my familiar got better!! Yep, think that's it.

Lastly, Everyone's Saves and BAB (yeah, I know, not exactly BAB) go up every other level while level has nothing to do with Spell DCs. How does a level 40 Wiz hinder (let alone defeat) a level 40 Fig? The question here is, as a fighter goes up he improves in basic combat and gains feats, as a caster goes up he gains feats. Hmm... seem to be missing something. Telling a caster to enter melee is like telling a fighter to cast a spell, so please don't bother waxing poetic that a level 40 Sor has at least a BAB of 20/15.

This isn't a 'got the shaft' thread. We are seriously seeking answers as to why it is ok for all casters to receive very little improvement. Obviously this game isn't designed for one vs one combat so I am not seeking balance, paper-rock-scissors, type stuff. Some classes are going to be more powerful against others, which is extremely realistic.

However the simple fact is, I carry a set amount of weight surrounded by my level 20 brothers. Why do I carry less weight as well level up together? Casters essentially become more useless as we gain levels.

I'm sure this stuff has come up before, however, I do not have the search feature yet. If you'd rather point me to knowledge instead of spewing out stuff already stated, please feel free.

Thank you for any help.

 

[green slime]

Howdy Telor,

First, there has been a long debate on the Fighter/Wizard Wizard/Fighter thing. Somepeople came up with house rules, the most sensible (IMO) was one where the multiclassed character was given the best possible BAB (non-EPic) for the combination of their classes, regardless of when they were taken.

As a 15th level Sorcerer / 5th Archmage, yes you must take 5 levels of Sorcerer before you gain the extra bonus feats. You may still take epic feats at 21st and 24th character level, however.

Your spellcaster level, improves, so it isn't just your familiar. Secondly, the archmage is a powerhouse, so you aren't really loosing a lot. What is the alternative for you? You aren't loosing anything at all: Compare to where you would have been without the Archmnage levels...

Its those feats that make the spellcaster keep up with the Slugmasters. Improved Metamagic, Improved Spellcasting, and the metamagic feats all make for extremely powerful spells flying into the fray.

Sure the fighter will probably make his save. So what? He'll still take half damage from those elemental damage spells, and will likely end up served on a platter regardless.

 

[Malin Genie]

The reason is the all-important caster level.

Yes, you don't get more spells/day. But you do get a better chance of beating SR, your spells are harder to dispel, last longer, go further, affect more targets and in some cases (although most spells are capped) do more damage.

 

[Kraedin]

20Wiz/20Fig looks very different than a 20Fig/20Wiz explain in-game terms with logical and believable reasons why these two people would look any different.

I suggest implementing a house rule where your base attack is determined as though you had taken the classes in the most advantageous way.

Epic Spells are worse than level 9 spells. Look at all that is required to make and cast the Ruin spell, compare that to MeteorSwarm. While Epic Spells can exceed PHB spells and people must be powerful to wield such spells, how can any 'level 10' spell be blatantly less powerful (and cost a ridiculous amount of resources) than level 9 spells?

The Epic Spellcasting rules suck. I've been working on a rewrite, but it's basically imposible to balance becuse of the Spellcraft DC system. There's really no way to tell what kind of Spellcraft bonus a caster of a given level will have. (Basically, I've seen 21st level casters with anywhere from +4 to +90.)

Say I'm a 15Sor/5Acm (archmage) why on Toril do I have to take 5 levels of Sor before I may receive my Bonus Epic Sorcerer Feats? Let's see what those 5 levels of Sor give me after I'm 20... woohoo my familiar got better!! Yep, think that's it.

Go Epic archmage. (Yes, I know that sidebar says no, but it's simply not fair.)

Lastly, Everyone's Saves and BAB (yeah, I know, not exactly BAB) go up every other level while level has nothing to do with Spell DCs. How does a level 40 Wiz hinder (let alone defeat) a level 40 Fig? The question here is, as a fighter goes up he improves in basic combat and gains feats, as a caster goes up he gains feats. Hmm... seem to be missing something. Telling a caster to enter melee is like telling a fighter to cast a spell, so please don't bother waxing poetic that a level 40 Sor has at least a BAB of 20/15.

Take Improved Spell Capacity repeatedly, as well as Improved Metamagic. Then cast a eagle's splendor, empowered into your highest level slot. That should help quite a bit. For example, a 10th level eagle's splendor gives you a +9 to spell DCs.

 

[hammymchamham]

I suggest implementing a house rule where your base attack is determined as though you had taken the classes in the most advantageous way.

This is an excellent Idea, and will use this, Thanks.

 

[The Souljourner]

You want to know how a level 40 sorcerer beats a level 40 fighter? The sorcerer gets 13 feats. Call 3 of them automatic quicken spell (up to 9th level spells are cast quickened at no charge). Call 6 of them improved spellcasting capacity (gaining you up to 15th level slots), call 1 epic spellcasting, call 2 others multispell, and one last one epic heighten (whatever it's called).

Now, your 40th level caster is casting 3 quickened spells per round, which may be up to 9th level for no level change.

His spellcasting stat (assuming starting at 16) is about 43, just with level bonuses, +5 inherent bonus, and a +12 enhancement bonus. At 40th, he probably has managed to get at least another +10 from some other type. Call it 53 for his spellcasting stat.

Now, his 15th level slots can be taken up by spells with a DC of 50 (assuming greater spell focus)

Keep in mind that a fighter's big drawback is that he only gets so many attacks per round - (generally about 4-5, though as many as 9 if you have perfect two weapon fighting and haste). Still, you can cast 4 spells per round (5 with haste, until they nerf it), and they can be very devastating.

And don't forget epic spells. Although they seem very expensive at low levels, at higher levels, taking a level's worth of XP to create an earth shaking spell, is probably well worth it. A DC 74 spell is pretty damn powerful, and is castable by taking 10 by this spellcaster.

Spellcasters are powerful, you just have to put some thought into what feats you take.

 

[Hashmalum]

The Epic Spellcasting rules suck. I've been working on a rewrite, but it's basically imposible to balance becuse of the Spellcraft DC system. There's really no way to tell what kind of Spellcraft bonus a caster of a given level will have. (Basically, I've seen 21st level casters with anywhere from +4 to +90.)

The character with a +4 Spellcraft check bonus obviously just wasn't planning on being an epic spellcaster. The character with the +90 bonus almost certainly achieved it through some sick +skill items which no sane DM would have allowed into the game had that DM known that they were going to be using the epic spellcasting rules. In both cases, it seems very likely that the characters were created before the ELH came out. Therefore, they will not be well-balanced characters to play at epic levels. This is unfortunate, but it is not just casters of epic spells that have this problem. Consider the epic fighter/wizard vs. wizard/fighter thing. I'd rather have had a system that didn't require specific planning before entering epic levels, but I'm not even sure if that's possible and it certainly isn't what we have. Rather than tweaking the rules in this case, it might just be better to tweak the existing characters--and make sure that your players know how to plan for epic levels in advance next time.

 

[Thresher]

As a 23rd level generalist wiz/2nd fighter with an ECL+2, I just stumble around behind the people that dont suck mooching xp until I can get enough to reserch a couple of epic spells to finally sink home some damage and look less of a gimp.
I give up running with the pack, just give the melee some wep buffs, haste and let the sorc nuke away far better than I could ever dream of, occassionally I stick up the odd defensive spell and teleport us about the place.

Nothing an NPC or some magic items of their own couldnt do really.

 

[The Souljourner]

Thresher - your problem is that you screwed yourself. Spellcasters need all the levels they can get. By taking two fighter levels and an ECL +2 race, you've effectively started off four levels behind everyone else. If you had just gone for a straight ECL 0 race with 27 levels of wizard, you'd have three more epic feats, and +4 to your caster level. That's a huge difference.

-The Souljourner

 

[Orco42]

I'm with Souljourner.

Epic Spells suck, at least until you get to very high levels (50+).

Before then go for Imp. Spell Cap., Auto Quicken, and multispell.

Really all you need in 3x Auto Quicken. One Quickened Time Stop should be all you need.