Epic Casters, How do you run with the pack?

[Caliber]

Note the Epic Spells normally fall flat when dealing damage directly.

That simply isn't what they're meant to do.

If you want a spell that can flatten a mile radius of land, make a mountain, or part a sea (or whatever some of the examples can do, I'm just making stuff up) make an Epic Spell.

If you wanna blow stuff up just use Improved Spellcasting (the one the opens up 10th and higher level spell slots) and Empower/Maximize/Admix/Whatever to your hearts content.

Epic Spells are not the realm of the damage dealers.

 

[SevenSir]

At non-epic levels, damage spells just keep getting better. Fireball turns into delayed blast fireball turns into meteor swarm. With existing feats, an epic level caster can raise these spells well out of the realm of the 20th level caster. Saying you don't get new, better spells, and are therefore at a disadvantage, just seems silly.

An epic spell leaves a mark. Like Caliber said, creating a mountain would be a very logical epic spell. Another might be to drive all the animals from a region, for an indefinite period. Creating permanent planes of existence is entirely within the realm of an epic caster's abilities. Why slay a handful of mortals, or make a fleeting blast of fire?

By the way, Souljourner, how would a PC get that additional +10 "from some other type"? You mentioned level-up bonuses (+10), +5 inherent, +12 enhancement. Because you mentioned it, I'm sure it exists, but I can't think of what it is. Munchkins and the very devoted are the ones who know this stuff, I guess. With a non-standard race, you could get it up by +10, I'm sure, but then you'd have an ECL and that would be your initial stat, which you gave as 16.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Abuse simulacrum and the "requires casters to spend a 9th level slot" to produce living quickened damage spells and cast them on yourself.

 

[The Souljourner]

By the way, Souljourner, how would a PC get that additional +10 "from some other type"? You mentioned level-up bonuses (+10), +5 inherent, +12 enhancement. Because you mentioned it, I'm sure it exists, but I can't think of what it is. Munchkins and the very devoted are the ones who know this stuff, I guess. With a non-standard race, you could get it up by +10, I'm sure, but then you'd have an ECL and that would be your initial stat, which you gave as 16.

Well, one way is to use the Fortify seed. It's kinda expensive, but perfectly legal by the rules. Another way is to make a magic item with a different kind of bonus. While technically legal, all the DMs I know generally won't let you create stuff that's not in a WoTC book.

-The Souljourner

 

[Thresher]

Thresher - your problem is that you screwed yourself. Spellcasters need all the levels they can get. By taking two fighter levels and an ECL +2 race, you've effectively started off four levels behind everyone else. If you had just gone for a straight ECL 0 race with 27 levels of wizard, you'd have three more epic feats, and +4 to your caster level. That's a huge difference.

-The Souljourner

Oh dont I know it.
The character has been in play for the last 11years as a perfectly viable character, then to try something new I play some 3E, transfer her over and it all goes to sh*t.
Its not my fault, I took the feats, skills and equipment I thought could as closely match the origional 2E character, I even had 3 more levels of fighter, but that got dicked over too in the conversion along with all my inates.
I did everything by the rules, I didnt go for something the character wasnt for those 11 years and the system kicked me in the junk.
Now my character just sucks, cant fight anything my level, cant support with direct damage and I really, really hate it.

Its a very melancholy end for a character I once loved playing.

 

[Kerrick]

The Epic Spellcasting rules suck. I've been working on a rewrite, but it's basically imposible to balance becuse of the Spellcraft DC system. There's really no way to tell what kind of Spellcraft bonus a caster of a given level will have. (Basically, I've seen 21st level casters with anywhere from +4 to +90.)

Amen to that. We ended up scrapping the entire thing and going back to the level-based system, with the factors and elements in the ELH as a base - it's a much cleaner system, and loads easier to create spells with.

 

[The Souljourner]

Oh dont I know it.
The character has been in play for the last 11years as a perfectly viable character, then to try something new I play some 3E, transfer her over and it all goes to sh*t.

I'm sorry to hear that, Thresher. The problem is that dual- and multiclassing in 2nd edition were horribly broken. Let me guess, you started off as a fighter, then dual classed to Wizard, right? The problem with that is that those 5 levels of fighter took only a few thousand XP away from your total character. Let me make another guess, before you switched over to 3e, the single classed people in your party were no more than 1 level above your wizard level, right? Maybe 2 at most? You got 5 levels of fighter for the price of maybe one level of wizard. In 3e, you can't do the same thing. Taking 5 levels of fighter takes away 5 levels of your wizard class.

So yes, dual and multiclassed characters switching over to 3e do kind of get screwed. The problem is that they were way over powered before, and now multiclassing wizards or sorcerers is just a really bad option. You should try to talk to your DM to do something about the fact that your character, which was very viable in 2e is not really viable in 3e. I'm sure he/she would be understanding enough to let you do a little (doesn't have to be a lot) of revision.

-The Souljourner

 

[Shard O'Glase]

yeah 2e multi and dual classing was broken, but i'm not sure I'd consider 3e multiclassing fixed. The problems with the multiclassed spellcaster is a clear flaw in my mind.

 

[The Souljourner]

The character with a +4 Spellcraft check bonus obviously just wasn't planning on being an epic spellcaster. The character with the +90 bonus almost certainly achieved it through some sick +skill items which no sane DM would have allowed into the game had that DM known that they were going to be using the epic spellcasting rules.

I have to reiterate what Hashmalum said. No 20th level Wizard, Cleric, or Sorcerer should have +4 to his spellcraft check. If one does, obviously he was made without thinking about epic levels, and you just need to allow the guy to re-write the character a little bit, to account for the choices necessary for using the ELH.

And +90? How on earth do you get +90? Lemme guess - it's from a bunch of magic items that give +30 each, right? DMs should know better than to allow those type of magic items. The whole +x to a skill should be capped at +5 and costed like magic armor. The DMG is not very good at balancing custom magic items, which is why so many DMs don't allow them at all.

A generic spellcasting character who focuses on spellcasting should have 24 ranks at 21st level and a stat around 10-15 greater than its starting value (depending on how easy it is to get inherent bonuses in your campaign). That means, assuming a high stat of 16, and +12 to the stat (call it 5 from levels and 6 from an item and +1 inherent) most of those characters will have about a +33 to their spellcraft check, +-2 depending on the power level of the campaign. I think having a range of 31-35 for a spellcraft check is fairly well defined. If dedicated spellcasters are outside that range by a large amount, something isn't balanced in your campaign, or the character wasn't planned with epic levels in mind.

-The Souljourner

 

[kigmatzomat]

to try something new I play some 3E, transfer her over and it all goes to sh*t.
Its not my fault, I took the feats, skills and equipment I thought could as closely match the origional 2E character, I even had 3 more levels of fighter, but that got dicked over too in the conversion along with all my inates.

I think your mistake was trying to do a systemic conversion rather than a stylistic one. The mechanics are radically different between 2e and 3e so what was a rational decision in 2e is laughable at 3e. It's like going to a parallel universe where the rules of physics are close, but just enough different to make some things work way differently.
I'll be honest though, any race that earned a +2ECL would have definitely have received an XP "cost" in 2E in any of my games. If you already did that, make sure you aren't being double penalized.

You should almost have described the character to someone else who rebuilt the character for you so your closeness to the old rules didn't get in the way. (i.e. "But I never cast delayed blast fireball, only classic fireball! It's not worth it to bother with DLB!")

Fighter levels aren't as important in 3e as they were in 2e since 1st level gives all the proficiencies, but that extra feat is nice. PrCs weren't available in 2e so you should consider them heavily as alternatives to fighter levels, possibly spellsword, arcane archer, or duelist depending on how you spent your 2e fighter proficiencies. Now if your group had done the conversion without having the Epic book, you are forgiven, but your GM should allow you to reconvert because the rules shift can completely screw a caster. Alternately see if Savage Species reclassified your race's ECL.

Now my character just sucks, can't fight anything my level, cant support with direct damage and I really, really hate it.

You can, but probably not without a mental thought-train rail change. Use non-save spells like Enervation (-d4 to attacks, saves, etc) and Otiluke's Freezing Orb (ray form-20d6 cold) combined with true strike if your RAB sucks. Toss Greater Dispellings (you should drop 25-75% of the opponent's magical defenses for 1-4 rounds including magic armor bonuses), summon in beasties as flankers, and work those buff spells.

Pick up Greater Spell penetration to make up for your lost caster levels and go for epic improved metamagic and spell slots. The sorceror will likely go for manyspell & 3x autoquicken to be a gatling gun, you should become a howitzer. (improved metamagic x3 + 6xadmixtured fireball =70d6 for 1 9th level slot).

3e is a game with plateaus and you're on one while the others are on another. Don't worry, it'll shift. Oh, and don't bother with Epic spells. They suck until about 50th level. Learn to love your metamagicks; they will be your friend.