Epic CRs - too low?

[Dark Dragon]

Two of my campaigns are now at epic levels (the PCs are at level 19 to 20). After some encounters, I wondered about the low CRs of some epic monsters.

Two examples:
1) One party (a half-elf ftr4/clr12/dis3, human pal15/clr4, elf wiz15/mao4, irda wiz14/acm5, centaur drd18/dis1), well equipped and prepared for battle (but after a tough fight) is confronted with a white slaad (CR 21, ELH) and a wizard CL 17 (with almost no spells left). Nearly all spells cast by the party wizards have no or little effect (due to high SR and/or good saves, and decent fast healing ability). In melee combat, the slaad annihilated a summoned huge earth elemental as well as a summoned, animal growthed T-Rex within a few rounds, before knocking the paladin unconcious and nearly killing the druid with chaotic wounds (another special abilty, every hit of the slaad may cause additional "chaotic" damage, some d4s for some rounds, IIRC).
The party survived (but the paladin was killed), because the slaad failed a Fort save (I rolled a 1) against a Polymorph any Object.

2) I developed an encounter where the party should fight off a sirrush (CR 24, IIRC). The party consists of a mnk17/shou disciple 2, a clr17/hie2, a rog9/ftr6/dws5, a pal11/clr2/hospitaler 6, a rgr13/dws7 and a bbn1/ftr2/rgr1/drd8/shi8 (no arcane caster! About some class levels I'm not 100% sure, I don't have the stats at hand. All PCs were build with the 32-point-method). I planned to give the party the chance to prepare an ambush, but with little option to retreat to higher ground (to avoid a boring combat with firing archers and watching melee fighters....). Then I re-checked the sirrush's stats (stunning roar at an insane DC, an AC that can be penetrated only with Hunter's Mercy cast again and again, fast healing 20!, lots of attacks, power attack, DR 10 or 15/epic, nearly 900 hps, high SR, good saves...) and concluded to cancel that fight.


After all, it seems that a party and its epic foe should be of an almost equal level.
Did you make similar observations? Any ideas to handle epic fights properly?

 

[jodyjohnson]

The CRs of epic creatures are much like the CRs for the Dragons.

They kind of assume that the party has some warning/planning for the challenge.

They aren't assigned a CR as something the party can just happen upon heading to town.


I also think that as parties get higher level that ELs should be close to their level or lower moreso than the earlier levels. Sure a 20th level party could beat a CR 24+ but they can still suffer deaths from CR 16 or lower. A bad die roll here or there is all it takes.

 

[Pants]

I also think that as parties get higher level that ELs should be close to their level or lower moreso than the earlier levels. Sure a 20th level party could beat a CR 24+ but they can still suffer deaths from CR 16 or lower. A bad die roll here or there is all it takes.

And a lot of the Epic CR monsters have abilities that translate simply to Save or DIE! DIE! DIE!

Plus, it's also quite apparent how the CR system cracks in half during Epid levels.

 

[Dark Dragon]

And a lot of the Epic CR monsters have abilities that translate simply to Save or DIE! DIE! DIE!

Yep, and that's not really satisfying. D&D monsters (and spells, of course) have sometimes powers that may kill a character on failed save (like Finger of Death, Wail of the Banshee, or just a wyvern's sting - have seen that yesterday). In epic campaigns, it is not only that a creature's special powers (like a LeShay's (a CR 28 monster) charming gaze - Will save DC 53 - or be charmed as with Charm Monster) get insane DCs to resist, but also their regular attacks dish out much more damage than a normal build PC can take for long. Add high saves, SR, DR and the encounter may become quickly a deadly one, even if the group is on the same level with the foe.

 

[Arravis]

How are you defining an Epic monster? Do you simply mean a CR 21+ monster (which is not necessarily epic), or do you mean a monster out of the Epic Level Handbook? Monsters in the ELH (and other Epic monsters) are meant to be taken on by epic characters, not level 19-20 characters.

I agree that the CR system isn't really able to cope well with Epic encounters. It requires that the DM know the players and the monster's powers and abilities extremely well. The capabilities must also be known in the context of practical use, not just how they read on paper. This is why I believe that it's fruitless to attempt to play an epic level game without having the players build from level 1 and up. The level of complexity involved requires 20+ levels of gameplay (with those characters, and the DM running opponsnets against those characters) to do it justice.

 

[Jdvn1]

The CRs of epic creatures are much like the CRs for the Dragons.

They kind of assume that the party has some warning/planning for the challenge.

Actually, they stopped that with 3.5. That's why the Dragon CR's jumped.

I think the issue is that the party would be more challenged if they were fighting more than one creature at a time, but.

 

[S'mon]

Well, yeah, the CRS are obviously too low. Presumably an Epic NPC Wiz-24 or Ftr-24 is CR 24 per the RAW? Compare that to your Sirrush, which sounds more like CR 30 to me. Of course suitably min-maxed Epic PCs with their free choice of items-by-wealth can presumably trash it at around 22nd level, but at 19th fuhgeddaboudit.

 

[Darth K'Trava]

On the contrary, our DM thought that alot of the epic monsters in the EHB was set too low. He thought that they were actually meant for PCs of a much higher level than the CRs will attest to. At least, that was his reasoning as to why he didn't throw many of them at us. Most, in his opinion, would've wiped the party out.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Yep, and that's not really satisfying. D&D monsters (and spells, of course) have sometimes powers that may kill a character on failed save (like Finger of Death, Wail of the Banshee, or just a wyvern's sting - have seen that yesterday).
In epic campaigns, it is not only that a creature's special powers (like a LeShay's (a CR 28 monster) charming gaze - Will save DC 53 - or be charmed as with Charm Monster)

Which a first level spell makes you immune to. A first level spell. After the fact no less. So it's not really a problem.

I think that's what you're missing here - our party at level 12 was immune to poison, fear, compulsions if even one person saved (because they'd then dish out magic circle against evils) etc etc.

And lets face it - unless a critter can fly or attack at range, they've no hope of laying a hand on a PC (or at least SHOULD have no hope...) That's why the sirrush is so low. Sure it's nasty within 60ft, but if the PC's are forced within 60ft, that's not a normal fight - it's a terrain advantage to the sirrush. And of course a silence spell just terminates that stun effect - which sensible players should do after the first one...

get insane DCs to resist, but also their regular attacks dish out much more damage than a normal build PC can take for long. Add high saves, SR, DR and the encounter may become quickly a deadly one, even if the group is on the same level with the foe.

If a foe does a surprising amount of damage in melee for it's CR, the PC's are not supposed to engage it in melee. At the least, they should engage it for a round, work out "we can't take much more of this" and then back off. If your players have gotten to 20th level, and not worked this out, there's something funny going on.

Finally - I think epic is at least party balanced for cheese. If you've previously looked at a tactic and thought "wow, that's cheese", then when you go epic, you should probably go back and take advantage of it.

 

[Rhun]

I noticed the other day that in the errata for the Epic Level Handbook, many of the CRs of the monsters have been upped. For example, the White Slaad is CR24, and the Sirrush is CR40 using the errata.


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