Epic CRs - too low?

[jodyjohnson]

That errata refers to the chart where the ECLs are listed and other than a dragon, only the ECLs were changed.

 

[Crothian]

One problem of high levels is trying to figure out what an average parties power is. There are so many options that we can construct a party of 25th level character but have them not be equal in power or anywhere close. This is especially true if you enter the world of min maxing.

 

[CRGreathouse]

I've found them to be pretty good. At level 26, my group of six was able to defeat a CR 30 with great effort and expenditure of resources.

 

[Dark Dragon]

Which a first level spell makes you immune to. A first level spell. After the fact no less. So it's not really a problem.

Granted. But a LeShay may cast Greater Dispelling at CL 20 at will, the chance to dispel a CL 25 Protection from Evil is not that bad....add 10 attacks per round with brilliant energy weapons (crit 15-20), dealing d10+15 damage, AC 52, fast healing 10, good DR and you have a decent melee guy. For flying foes, a LeShay has a nice bow and some helpful spell-like abilities...

And lets face it - unless a critter can fly or attack at range, they've no hope of laying a hand on a PC (or at least SHOULD have no hope...) That's why the sirrush is so low. Sure it's nasty within 60ft, but if the PC's are forced within 60ft, that's not a normal fight - it's a terrain advantage to the sirrush. And of course a silence spell just terminates that stun effect - which sensible players should do after the first one...

Agreed. But it makes the monster more or less useless. If the party is well prepared, the PCs can pepper it with arrows and spells while flying around. If the party is surprised, a sirrush will kill a PC or two (the stun effect lasts 1d4 rounds, the sirrush can use its roar every d4 rounds, with bad luck, it is a TPK). So, if you have a flying group, the sirrush is just another tank that can be finished off sooner or later (more later) without any casualties. If not (imagine a fight in a dungeon with corridors), the same party is in trouble.

Well, yeah, the CRS are obviously too low. Presumably an Epic NPC Wiz-24 or Ftr-24 is CR 24 per the RAW? Compare that to your Sirrush, which sounds more like CR 30 to me. Of course suitably min-maxed Epic PCs with their free choice of items-by-wealth can presumably trash it at around 22nd level, but at 19th fuhgeddaboudit.

Yep, I try to avoid that a player may equip his character freely from all sources and the players try as well (no epic supermarkets...).

How are you defining an Epic monster? Do you simply mean a CR 21+ monster (which is not necessarily epic), or do you mean a monster out of the Epic Level Handbook? Monsters in the ELH (and other Epic monsters) are meant to be taken on by epic characters, not level 19-20 characters.

I agree that the CR system isn't really able to cope well with Epic encounters. It requires that the DM know the players and the monster's powers and abilities extremely well. The capabilities must also be known in the context of practical use, not just how they read on paper. This is why I believe that it's fruitless to attempt to play an epic level game without having the players build from level 1 and up. The level of complexity involved requires 20+ levels of gameplay (with those characters, and the DM running opponsnets against those characters) to do it justice.

Seems so. But there is no big change when a character goes from level 20 to 21. Attacks +1, the first epic feat, some hp and skills. But no hail of epic items to penetrate epic DR or boost AC (at least IMC). I take into account the powers of each PC to avoid unbalanced encounters (works not always, though). Most of the PCs described above started from level 1 or 2, the others joined the party at higher levels. IMC, epic monsters are those described in the ELH.

 

[Darth K'Trava]

I've found them to be pretty good. At level 26, my group of six was able to defeat a CR 30 with great effort and expenditure of resources.

Heh. Our 26th level party was easily polishing off stuff 4-5 levels higher than they were. We consisted of a human cleric/divine champion (my character), a Drow sorcerer/cleric/mystic theurge, a half-tiefling fighter/barbarian shade, and a half drow ranger/rogue. We were quite the butt-kicking party and it was a fun group too!!