Epic level casters versus fighters

[James McMurray]

The sorcerer's true flexibility comes not from having more spells castable per day, but from having the ability to instantly metamagic any spell. Plus, you can always use a higher level slot for a lower level spell (whether you metamagic it or not). n a way it is a point-based system.

I'm glad they didn't make it opint-based like the psion, since they probably would have messed it up (like they did with the psion). Also, being point-based would have severely over-powered the sorcerer without a major overhaul, given that their spells scale with level.

 

[Oni]

Personal take on the sorcerer (having played both 3E sorcerers and wizards). Mechanically speaking they are relatively balanced, I say relatively because no class can be perfectly balanced with all the others. Mechanically speaking if I could make one small change to the sorcerer as written in the PHB it would be to add a couple small class abilities to be gained as they progress in level, so that they have something to lose by taking PrC's. The versatility of being able to pick and choose which spell you are going to cast from your spell selection on the fly is a huge advantage in practice.

My issue with the sorcerer is a flavor one, spells know and spells per day is fine in my opinion, but why do they all cast spells the same as wizards, if you put a wizard and a sorcerer next to each other by the rules they would be indistinguishable if they were casting the same spell. How does a sorcerer learn the systematic use of components, how do they learn about material components to use their spells when they are supposed to be natural talents. Why are a sorcerers skills so much like the academic wizard? Flavor wise if I could change something about the sorcerer it would be the following things. I would add a spellcraft penalty to anyone trying to discern what spell they are casting because each is an individual. I would get rid of material components and add an xp cost for expensive material components, much like Monte Cooks sorcerer (except I would opt for 1/10 the gold cost in xp rather than 1/25). And lastly I would give them a skill list based on intuition rather than academia (Something like: Animal Empathy, Concentration, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Listen, Spot, Sense Motive, Spellcraft[I would considerer this to be an intuitive understanding of magic], Bluff, Use Magic Device, Profession, Craft).

 

[Kae'Yoss]

If the sorcerer had a completely flexible, point-based system like the psion....

It would not be D&D anymore. Maybe the sorcerer is not to well thought out (probably because they brought it into the game very late, after the playtesters banned spontaneous spellcasting for all classes and they wouldn't let go of it entirely. Too bad they didn't use the real 3e rules when making Pool Of Radiance 2, but those early playtest draft.) but I think it works just fine.

And psions lose much: their spells aren't scaleable (or only via optional rules, with additional cost) and tend to deal less damage than others. Also, comparing number of powers a psion can cast with the number of spells sorcerers or wizards (or druids/clerics) cast per day per day, spellcasters are better off (although they can't cast as much higher-level spells, cause they can't use lower-level slots for higher-level spells, while psions can use "low-level"-pp for high-level powers).

So if you want to change the sorcerer, do something like Monte (I like the MK sorc better than the normal one.), but please keep mana out of D&D.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

My issue with the sorcerer is a flavor one, spells know and spells per day is fine in my opinion, but why do they all cast spells the same as wizards, if you put a wizard and a sorcerer next to each other by the rules they would be indistinguishable if they were casting the same spell. How does a sorcerer learn the systematic use of components, how do they learn about material components to use their spells when they are supposed to be natural talents. Why are a sorcerers skills so much like the academic wizard? Flavor wise if I could change something about the sorcerer it would be the following things. I would add a spellcraft penalty to anyone trying to discern what spell they are casting because each is an individual. I would get rid of somatic components and add an xp cost for expensive material components, much like Monte Cooks sorcerer (except I would opt for 1/10 the gold cost in xp rather than 1/25). And lastly I would give them a skill list based on intuition rather than academia (Something like: Animal Empathy, Concentration, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Listen, Spot, Sense Motive, Spellcraft[I would considerer this to be an intuitive understanding of magic], Bluff, Use Magic Device, Profession, Craft).

I concur. But I would not eliminate somantic or verbal components (Material ones are OK, and 1/25 seems alright).

I'd just say that they're different with the two classes: (the following is an example of what might be, not the exact rulings) wizards will describe a counter-clockwise circle with their left hand, holding bat guano and sulfur, and chant an ancient formula in an ancient, forgotten language. The result will be that in the circle he traces a ball of flame will appear, which the wizard pushes away with his hand. In short: fireball.

The sorcerer, on the other hand, will just raise his hand to eye level, clawing the fingers and shouting something like "by the hellfires, you will burst in flame" and fling the hand outward, releasing a ball of flame. In short: fireball again. Both versions have both somantic and verbal components, but the sorcerers are more intuitive.

Getting rid of any of the components that otherwise would require to raise the level (with still spell or silent spell) will surely unbalance the whole thing (without verbal components, sorcerers will be much more stealthy, and without somantic components, they can wear armor without the usual penalties. The result would be countless fighter/sorcerers). Material components, on the other hand, really are out of place, and since the metamagic feat to eliminate these won't raise the spell level, you can incorporate it into the sorcerer class without to much unbalancing.



Adding class features would also be quite funny: maybe something that you can mimic spells cast by others (like Galaeron did in the Return of the Archwizards series), but he'll need to use the material componends and memorize and mimic the V and S components used by the caster, requiring checks (spot, spellcraft, concentration or something like that). Also, they would be weaker than normal spells, would require the same time as a metamagiced spell, and/or would require the use of a higher level slot. And it would be limited to X spells per day

 

[Oni]

Big whoops, getting rid of Somatic components was a typo, I meant material, guess I had a brain fart. I corrected it in my original post.

 

[MensurB]

Where can I find monte cooks version of the sorcerer, and who is he?

 

[Oni]

Monte Cook is a game designer. His variant sorcerer can be found in The Book of Eldritch Might II, either on his website in pdf form (www.montecook.com, under Malhavoc Press), or the print version which I believe is published by Sword & Sorcery Studios. His varient basically boils down to 4+int mod skills, d6 HD and no material components (1/25 of gold cost for xp), and their own spell list, with some spells like haste being made higher level, missing others, and supplemented with some from both of the Eldritch Magic books.

 

[reiella]

Psions may get 'errata'd', at least brc gave an alternate suggestion (No continued Manifester level or Power Point Progression, they gain one power known/lvl http://pub58.ezboard.com/fokayyourturnfrm18.showMessage?topicID=628.topic ).

More so it seems that the 'disadvantage' is in that Wizards had a clear level based class feature that could progress in epic levels (spell knowledge). The 'epic' advantage the sorcerer seems to get is mostly in epic spell casting (research and min/maxing with the formula is fun when you start getting DC 0 epic spells). Well at least, for another feat, the Sorcerer can shore up his quicken spell weakness (or other metamagic time).

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Big whoops, getting rid of Somatic components was a typo, I meant material, guess I had a brain fart. I corrected it in my original post.

Ah, okay. We agree, then.

What do you think of the spell mimic idea?

 

[green slime]

But the point is this: The number of spells an epic wizard can know is only limited by the number of spells in existance (or, more precisely, spells on his spell list and not of his forbidden schools). But that's also true for a non-epic wizard, even for a 1st-level wizard (except non-epic wizards maybe don't have access to all spell levels).

Incorrect, the wizard is not even limited by the number of spells in existance: He can research new spells, and at epic levels is very likely to spend some of his large wads of cash doing so Researching non-Epic spells.

The sorcerer has in fact an advantage: he can downplay his disadvantage by gaining additional spells via a feat, while the wizard still can't cast them spontaneously! They can also erase their metamagic disadvantages with the automatic metamagic feats.

The wizard CAN cast spells spontaneously; either through Innate Spell (FRCS, T&B) or Signature Spell (FRCS). Either way it costs feats.

But what do you propose? Give sorcerers a feat that they can learn spells like wizards do, via scrolls? That would make the wizard obsolete? Increasing the number of known spells you get per feat? That would be OK I think, but that won't change the nature of sorcerers. Automatically granting sorcerers new known spells after 20th? That could work, but you have to be _very_ cautious, or you end up with the sorcerer as the much more powerful class.

I wasn't proposing anything, just moaning. I'm a prime moaner. My job isn't game design. I don't have time to ponder how to fix things. I just like things to be reasonably balanced so a good game can be had by all.

No, it's no oversight. They determined that the feat grants you one single slot. If your ability score's high enough, you get the bonus feat. But you won't get another to use with your specialist school, nor do clerics get their domain slot (see the drow cleric for that).
They did that because it would make the feat much stronger for certain classes, and would severly unbalance it.

So it seems that the poeple involved had actually used some of the stuff, and seen the consequences. But you have not, or you would not complain that sorcerers get the shaft, and in the same discussion demand that they empower wizards.

BUT I have seen a question to one of the designers on this board, or WotC board concerning Specialists: the answer being: Oops. of course they should get their bonus spell. I believe it was SKR, but I couldn't garantee that.

I did no such thing as DEMAND. I stated what I see as a "fact" (it is a class ability after all): that specialists gain a spell slot of every spell level that they can cast. I then use this "fact" to point out how the sorcerer got shafted. If you interpret the rules some other way, more power to you.

Writing a rules supplement, should one not be specific in saying, that the sole advantage a Specialist had for 20 levels, is no longer valid? Does this mean my 21st level specialist can cast spells of the forbidden schools, provided they are metamagicked above 9th level? (Of course not, he can't learn them...)

Can he cast epic spells that are based on spells of a forbidden school? IMC, that isn't going to happen.

So you don't shaft the sorcerer, you shaft the specialist...

The dilemma is not easily solved; but that is why I pay MONEY to a company that hypes its product as solving those kind of issues, only to find it hasn't been proof-read.

Luckily the campaign I DM just hit 7th level, so I have time to sort this stuff out and let my players know how the "rules" and "facts" are interpreted in our game.

James McMurray:

I almost agree with you. The problem being the amount of other stuff that is incorrect, that I don't trust that which is printed there. That is, what with the contradictory errors in the Epic Spellcasting section, how does one trust that they got Szass Tam right?

Is it possible that Szass Tam is NOT regarded as an Epic Level Specialist? Because he dabbles as an Archmage and other PrC? In other words, he hasn't reached 21st level as a specialist.

Without the ELH here at work, what exactly does the ELH say about Specialists, in the Wizard section?

A foot note:
The great Szass Tam also has an Intelligence of the average 8th-10th level PC wizard...