Epic level Windrider Mount: Silver Dragon???

[Albert_Fish]

If this is in the wrong firum please move it to the approprate forum. That being said...
Ok i am doinga startup Epic Level Campaign ( so this means we are playing new characters generated specific for Epic levels). i have not let my playesr have access to the Epic book except just to glance at its innards. They are developing ( with my aid) 20th level characters. These characters are to have one to two classes of about ten levels each ( just to make it easier to manage, after all i am dong most of the character creation work).

One player wishes to play a paladin (10) Windrider (10) with a dragon mount. He hit upon the idea of the dragon being his Cohort as well thus nominally fixing game balance issues.

For a cohort of such power should i require Epic Leadership?

What CR/HD should the dragon be? ( the Characters will be 28th after they add Epic Levels) The Windrider class description says flying mounts shoudlbe ofa CR four less than the Character level. This seems very powerful for a dragon so i settled on around 6 to 7. is this fair?

Another player wishes to playa Sorcerer (10) Shifter (10). i amallowing him to take the formof anything from the MMI ( i have several of the monster books put out so far, including MMII) that fits this Criteria
Average Specimen below 15HD

Any Vermin, Beast,plant or animal.

is this too resrictive or too liberal?
HELP!

 

[Gez]

Hum. IIRC, the equivalent character level of a dragon (for the purpose of the Leadership feat when taking a cohort) is equal to its CR +5.

So, if your windrider is a gnome or halfling (or kobold or goblin or anything Small and humanoid), he just need a Medium Silver Dragon as a mount: a Very Young or Young one. Their CRs are 4 and 6, so the dragon would be ECL 9 and 11 respectively.

If the hero is Medium (like a human, a dwarf, an orc, a hobgoblin, or even an elf), he need at least a Large dragon. Juvenile (CR 9, ECL 14) and Young Adult (CR 12, ECL 17) are Large.

Of course, he can also have a Dragon mount larger than necessary. An Adult Silver Dragon is Huge and CR 14, making it ECL 19 and the extreme limit for a 20th level character (since a Cohort's level must be strictly lower than the character's level). A halfling or gnome could mount such a dragon without problem, a human also.

Mature Adult and older Silver Dragons are CR 17 and up, making them ECL 22 and more, out of the reach of a "lowly" 20th level character.


For additional infos, you can look at a copy of Defenders of the Faith; or, if you don't have such a book available somewhere, you're lucky:
The excerpt of DotF on the WotC web site is just the excerpt about dragon mounts.

You can read it here:

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20010504a,0

 

[skymage]

i don't have to much of an opinion on the paladin i'd say give the player what is appropriate. like if he is the type to abuse his mount and get the most powergamer type uses out of the poor dragon i'd give him a lower hd one but if he will be more reasonanble i'd give him a bigger dragon just for the wow factor after all it will be epic. i might even add a few charactor levels if it's his cohort as well as his mount.

the shifter on the other hand i have an opinion on. the shifter is one of my favorite classes. i can make a master of shape sorcerer and then take levels of this master of shape prestige class, but i would never consider giving up shapechange for the class if i was restricted to the forms you gave.

according to the class i should be able to take any form from diminuative to gargantuan and anything of the the type
1st humanoid
2nd monsterous humanoid, animal
3rd beast, plant
4th giant, vermin
5th magical beast
6th aberation, ooze
7th dragon
8th undead, construct
9th elemental, outsider.

if i where limited to Vermin, Beast, plant or animal at tenth level of the class i would feel cheated out of 90% of the power of the class. i would also remove the hd restriction but make sure that he only gets one shape per level and that he never exceeds his own hd per shape meaning only 4 shapes with more then 15 hd. make sure that he lists at what level he takes the shape so you don't end up with him haveing more then 2 outsider shapes when he could only chose outsider at 9 and 10 level of the shifter class, and to prevent him from having all of his shapes as 20 hd shapes.

so in the end i say you have to guess how much abuse of the mount there will be when you decide what hd dragon to give him.

i have a player that would love to roleplay a dragon friend, but i also have a player that would want to have the dragon or any mount as a second charactor so this is a case by case basis to me, and my players know this is how i do things. i give roleplayers more potential power knowing they will use it in a roleplaying way while the power gamers try use all the power i give them with little or no roleplaying reasons involved, and it works out good for use others might see this as unfair.

i would give the paladin as much power as he will need to roleplay or make it fair based on how he will use the power.

as for the shifter reread it. maybe i interprate it wrong maybe you do but, i think the Vermin, Beast, plant or animal limitation is way to much, as is the hd limit. just remember one shape per level and the hd size and shape limits based on the level you take the shape and i think it will be fine. also remember that at level 10 shifter he/she gets dark vision doesn't age and becomes the type shapechanger.

so yeah your ristrictions on the shifter are to restrictive in my opinion.

 

[Albert_Fish]

Sorry, what i meant to say about the restriction to the Shifter Forms is:

" he knows the forms of anything of 15 HD or lower ( we assume he has seen them in his travels since this is a pick-up game and we have nto actually 'earned' the levels) PLUS any vermin, beast, animal or plant regardless of their hit dice (excepting epic cratures such as the Epic Treant)"

sorry about the confusion

 

[skymage]

ok that sounds more reasonable to me i could deal with those restrictions