Epic Level: Worse than Role Master ?

[Trainz]

I went to take a look at http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/arcana/47 and I'm not sure I like what I see.

If this NPC is any indication of what are Things To Come in the ELH, well it looks pretty cumbersome IMO. I did a cut and paste of the NPC in a MS Word doc and it took 8 pages. There where 39 feats. How can one expect an average DM to handle so much data for a single NPC ? If it takes 3 hours to create an epic level NPC, you won't see a lot of those IMC. I would be stuck with throwing monsters from the books all the time. Never mind actually pitting this NPC versus your players. Every fight would take forever to take care of, considering the amount of items, spells, skills, feats, abilities to take into account.

Don't get me wrong: I greatly await ELH, but if it becomes worse than Role Master, I might have to create the most massive amount of House Ruling I ever did. I don't really find that interesting.

 

[EOL]

This is a 71st level character, if you look at the difference in complexity between a 1st and a 10th and a 10th and a 20th, then add 50 levels on top of that I would expect that it would get pretty complicated. I admit myself that it seemed like a lot, but that's part of the point that you should have an enormous number of options.

Like you I'm going to wait and see, but I'm not too worried, mostly because I think I'll be using it mostly for 20-35th level characters, not 71st level characters.

 

[Greatwyrm]

If it takes 3 hours to create an epic level NPC, you won't see a lot of those IMC.

Well, you probably shouldn't see a great many Epic level NPCs in a game. We're not talking about your 10 first level warriors hanging out in a tavern or even your 15-20th level evil lich/wizard/tyrant things. We're talking about characters that are probably bordering on demi-godhood. It takes a while to properly put stuff like that together.

Anything of that power level should be rare as Roc's teeth. They should all be unique, especially given the wide array of options available to a 3E character. And that's just counting the core books, not the slew of other supplements you may allow in your game.

From my experience, the higher level the party gets to be, the harder it is to run a game from the seat of your pants. Higher level adventuring simply demands more from a DM.

 

[beldar1215]

I know what you mean about Rolemaster. That is what our group played before 3E came out. I enjoyed it, but it was very time consuming. We had a single battle that took 6 hrs to complete. That one combat was our whole game for the night. If I recall it wasn't even a major battle. I don't hate Rolemaster, just the time it takes to do certin things.

 

[Trainz]

Point conceded.

Like you said, I mainly plan to use it for below 40th level.

I hope there are also some goodies for 10th to 20th level.

Still wishing...

 

[PenguinKing]

Look at the feat breakdown, too. Consider, of those 39 feats:

2 are Item Creation, and thus don't come up in combat anyway.

10 are obviously Metamagic, and as such have to be explicitly invoked by the player - hence there's nothing really to keep track of.

2 are non-combat feats (Improved Familiar and - I assume - Epic Reputation and Spell Knowledge), and so shouldn't come up in combat either.

8 are always-active combat feats (Ambidexterity, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Critical, Improved Initiative, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting, Two Weapon Fighting, and Weapon Finesse) which it is the player's responsibility to figure into his stat block ahead of time; they'll already be accounted for in the noted attack routines/damage ratings/etc.

6 are are combat feats that have to be specifically invoked by the player (Combat Reflexes, Dire Charge, Improved Counterspell, Quick Draw, Reactive Counterspell, and Spring Attack), so you don't have to keep track of those until the player decides to use them.

2 are combat feats that provide a flat bonus in a specific situation (Combat Casting and Mobility), so it's fairly easy to just make a prominent note to that effect on the character sheet.

Even excluding the feats I'm not familiar with and can't reasonably guess about, it's pretty clear that very few of these feats are actually going to make combat more complicated outside of a few specific situations.

- Sir Bob.

P.S. Nih!

 

[your_mother]

epic level garbage

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/arcana/47


*gag* *gag* *gag* *gag* *gag* *gag* *gag* *gag* *gag* *gag* *gag* *gag* *gag* *gag* *gag*

 

[rounser]

This is my favourite part:

Helm of Carnage

On a confirmed critical the owner can attempt a secondary critical role. If the second role is also confirmed the owner inflicts severe damage, (both roles must be confirmed). For each attacked that is confirmed role 1d6.
1. Severs opponents head -- 25d8 damage and instant death
2. Severs opponents right arm -- 8d8 damage
3. Severs opponents left arm -- 8d8 damage
4. Severs opponents right leg -- 12d8 damage
5. Severs opponents left leg -- 12d8 damage
6. Cuts opponent in two at the waist -- 25d8 damage and instant death

Let's hope it's not from the rulebook.

 

[Humanophile]

That NPC isn't so bad. (OK, she is, but that's because she was cobbled together at 71st level. She's no worse than any other CR 71 encounter, I wouldn't think. Probably a tad on the easy side.)

Why do I say that? By offical WOTC figuring, she's about as powerful as 2^25 tarrasques, or 2^22 great wyrm gold dragons. I don't care how much of a headache this girl is, she's less hassle than a fraction of her equivelancy in monsters. Maybe a tossup with the Clr20/Wiz20/Sor20/Mnk11 you'd use to "classically" match her. (Keep in mind the amount of gear needed, too.)

Do things sound a little more reasonable now?

 

[Ulrick]

Final Fantasy D&D

This epic level stuff reminds me of the levels you can achieve in the Final Fantasy games. Its seems like toward the end of each game your pretty powerful as it is.

Yet what boggles me now after seeing that website is why (and how!) would a DM run a game at that kind of power level.

This brings to mind things like Waldorf the 300th level wizard who destroyed Greyhawk...according to a guy who wrote to Dragon a long while ago; and a strange gamer I encountered who played D&D by himself with a bunch of 50th level characters that specifically went out to slay all of the gods.

Is the Epic Level Handbook the reason why it seems like characters gain experience faster in D&D? Just so that players can have lots of Kewl Powerz sooner?

When the ELH comes out, I'll take a look at it. But I'm not certain if I'll buy it.

Ulrick