Epic Metamagic

[Vecna]

I'm in the MM should apply to the MM spell camp. It just seems really lame to me that if someone enlarged, and admiztured a fireball so it was a long range sonic/fireball, tha the end result would be a fireball that flew really far, and a shorter range sonic ball. As for muliple empowers, there are rules for doubling numeric efects just use those. This would meanby the way you couldn't maximize and empower since once maximized there wouldn't be a variable numeric effect to empower.

What about Twin Spell and other metamagic feats?
Do you copy the base spell or the modified one?

 

[CRGreathouse]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Epic Metamagic

Read my whole post, I did both.

I read your entire post.

I provided logical explanations (as if a 12-level spell that does nearly 2000 damage isn't enough to prove the point) AND I provided an emotional impact statement.

Abilities at this level make spells like that much less useful. Consider the low DC (13 + ability mod), the energy type (resistances are easy to come by), the save type (evasion and improved evasion - a ring of evasion is a must for those without class abilities), etc. What's more, this trick takes 14 feats (9 epic) and can be pulled off only 1/day.

Let's see... requires 14 feats and 30+ levels, severey limited uses/day, vulnerable to SR, energy resistance, and energy immunity; especially vulnerable to evasion/improved evasion due to low save DC (level 3 spell, no feats open for ESF or GI), etc.

It honestly doesn't look that bad - even if all the calculations are correct. By that level, saves will be high, SR near-universal, resistances (near-?)universal, and immunities common.

Improved Metamagic, as is, is broken. You can play with 12th-level spells dealing thousands of points of damage if you like, but I'll stick to game balance.

Interesting. If I didn't know better, I would have thought I'd seen this before... odd. Didn't we address discuss this before?

Anubis, I have nothing against you - but your problem with IM just doesn't make any more sense to me than the early 3E complaints about Whirlwind Attack's supreme power.

 

[Cloudgatherer]

I thought we already debunked the 1900 point fireball?

Let's see if I can break this down...
<snip>
fireball: 10d6
Enhance x3: 40d6
Admixture: 80d6
Intensify: 480 + 40d6 (Base spell is only 40d6!)
Twin: 480 + 40d6 + 40d6
Total Damage: 480 + 80d6 (avg: 760)
<snip>

I get an average damage of 760. There are 2 reflex saves in there, but ignoring those for now, that's what I get.

Exactly why are we arguing over basic metamagic stacking? Didn't we resolve this back when 3e came out (empower empower)?

 

[Anubis]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Epic Metamagic

I read your entire post.



Abilities at this level make spells like that much less useful. Consider the low DC (13 + ability mod), the energy type (resistances are easy to come by), the save type (evasion and improved evasion - a ring of evasion is a must for those without class abilities), etc. What's more, this trick takes 14 feats (9 epic) and can be pulled off only 1/day.

Let's see... requires 14 feats and 30+ levels, severey limited uses/day, vulnerable to SR, energy resistance, and energy immunity; especially vulnerable to evasion/improved evasion due to low save DC (level 3 spell, no feats open for ESF or GI), etc.

It honestly doesn't look that bad - even if all the calculations are correct. By that level, saves will be high, SR near-universal, resistances (near-?)universal, and immunities common.



Interesting. If I didn't know better, I would have thought I'd seen this before... odd. Didn't we address discuss this before?

Anubis, I have nothing against you - but your problem with IM just doesn't make any more sense to me than the early 3E complaints about Whirlwind Attack's supreme power.

Yes we did discuss this before . . . When all of you made me realize that Improved Metamagic was broken when I thought it was actually Empower Spell that was broken!

 

[CRGreathouse]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Epic Metamagic

Yes we did discuss this before . . . When all of you made me realize that Improved Metamagic was broken when I thought it was actually Empower Spell that was broken!

Yeah. Empower Spell's not a problem; Improved Metamagic is on the watchlist.

 

[Cloudgatherer]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Epic Metamagic

Yeah. Empower Spell's not a problem; Improved Metamagic is on the watchlist.

And as I demonstrated in that thread, *actually* build the character *then* determine if it is broken. After constructing the characters in question, I'm not inclined to impose a house rule on Improved Metamagic.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Epic Metamagic

And as I demonstrated in that thread, *actually* build the character *then* determine if it is broken. After constructing the characters in question, I'm not inclined to impose a house rule on Improved Metamagic.

I've not passed judgement, I've put something on a watchlist. Surely you agree that it's conceivable that IM's too powerful?

I haven't seen the evidence yet, but I can surely imagine it. By contrast, I can't even imagine Toughness or Weapon Focus being 'broken'.

 

[Marshall]

If you are contending that this rule is not the case, then all I want for Christmas is Empower Spell.

Empowered Fireball: 10d6 + 5d6
Empowered x2 Fireball: 15d6 + 7d6
Empowered x3 Fireball: 22d6 + 11d6

So the above is why we only base it on the base spell. Enhance is the exception, which is why it says it modifies the "base" spell and why there is the special restriction of only being able to apply it as many times as the feat has been taken.

Actually, No. If you allow the same MM feats to stack(and the designers indicate that this was not the original intent, and it wasn't tested that way) then there is already an actual "RULE" that covers this. In 3e a "Doubled Double" is a triple, or x 1.5 x 1.5 is a double. No need for a brand new rule that causes all sorts of headaches and no 'expanding' dice.

It's a fairly common practice for a metamagic feat to only modify the base spell. It just makes sense, is consistent, and eliminates a lot of problems.

Thats where youre wrong. Aside from the bulls strength example above there are literally hundreds of examples where the MM interacts with each other. Just a few....

Enlarged Empowered Lightning Bolt
Widened Heightened Fireball
Maximized Sculpted Fireball
Quickened Silenced Stilled Empowered Cats Grace
Enlarged Repeating Widened DBF
Heightened Chained Charm Person

I could go on and on, but its been done(over and over).
The "Rule That Doesn't Exist" doesnt exist for a reason. It doesnt make any sense, is a MONSTER to adjudicate, and, if the feats are the proper level adjustment, has absolutely no effect on game balance.

 

[Marshall]

I'm in the MM should apply to the MM spell camp. It just seems really lame to me that if someone enlarged, and admiztured a fireball so it was a long range sonic/fireball, tha the end result would be a fireball that flew really far, and a shorter range sonic ball. As for muliple empowers, there are rules for doubling numeric efects just use those. This would meanby the way you couldn't maximize and empower since once maximized there wouldn't be a variable numeric effect to empower.

Dang Shard, you could have just said "ditto" to my first post!