Epic spellcasting: Is it really feasible?

[ChimericDream]

I've been looking at some of the epic spells that are in various books, and something keeps striking me as odd. All these epic spells out there have spellcraft DCs in the 100-350 range, and some are even higher. With the way the d20 system and D&D are set up, how in the world could *any* spellcaster of a lower level than 150 hope to actually cast one of these spells? For example, the Dire Winter spell has a spellcraft DC of 319. Why bother even creating such a spell? Are epic level characters expected to have items granting bonuses (totaling hundreds of points) to their spellcraft checks, or do they just need to be level ~250-300 with a stupidly high ability modifier?

This just strikes me as something that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Any opinions or comments on why it's like this?

Added: I decided to see what it would cost to make a wondrous item that granted a +200 bonus to spellcraft, and it seems to be grossly underpriced. The SRD says that a competence bonus to a skill costs Bonus squared x 100 gp, so we're looking at 200^2*100, which comes to 4,000,000gp for an item that grants +200 to a single skill. Even if we follow the suggestion for some epic magic items and multiply this by 10, 40,000,000gp for a +200 boost seems to me like it could be underpriced. Opinions?

 

[Falling Icicle]

Yeah, it's ridiculous. The Epic spell system wouldn't be so bad if the DC's weren't so ridiculous. I don't know anyone who plans on playing a 300th level character. I would have much preferred that they simply continued spell casting progression from 10th level on, and provided rules for determing a spell's level based upon what it does. I suppose it wouldn't be too hard to convert the existing epic spell system into that, just say that spells with a DC from X-X are 10th level spells, DC X-X 11th, and so on.

 

[Moonstone Spider]

I'm guessing the DCs were developed by somebody who read the Wizards optimization boards and say the builds that say fighter2/rogue1/bard1/fist of the north star 7/caped catgirl 1/mecha pilot 2/tatooed mummy 6 that have +375 to Bluff or something and they concluded that all 20th level characters are like that.

Otherwise I got no clue. All the epic DCs tend to leave me wondering how any character who isn't a one-trick-pony optimization and/or pun-pun would pull them off.

 

[RainOfSteel]

[...] I would have much preferred that they simply continued spell casting progression from 10th level on [...]

10th level spells! Oh no! Cats and dogs living together! The universe will end! We can't have it, because it would be a good idea for those campaigns that wished to include those rules. Too many people are stuck on the idea that, "Oh, oh! But Wish is already 9th level, and we can't have anything more powerful than Wish."

Having something like a wish as a spell with a bazillion restrictions isn't a real wish, it's a multi-purpose do-whatever spell of 9th level power, and calling it Wish is a parody IMO. If we leave the wishes to artifacts (or uncopiable scrolls, etc.) doled out by the DM (if ever), then they can be what I think they need to be, special features of the game, not ho-hum tools of your average archmage.

All the epic DCs tend to leave me wondering how any character who isn't a one-trick-pony optimization and/or pun-pun would pull them off.

Ditto on that for me, as well.

Although I have no way of knowing it, the Epic spell system has the appearance of rules that were dreamed up, written down, discussed a few times half-heartedly, and then published without ever having really been playtested.

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Worse, even the most powerful of these "epic" spells are, well, underwhelming.

As for the least powerful ones, I wouldn't waste the XP to develop them.

 

[Kerrick]

Although I have no way of knowing it, the Epic spell system has the appearance of rules that were dreamed up, written down, discussed a few times half-heartedly, and then published without ever having really been playtested.

It was based on Skip Williams' high-level spell system in High Level Campaigns (2E). I can't say they did much of a better job with it, though.

With the way the d20 system and D&D are set up, how in the world could *any* spellcaster of a lower level than 150 hope to actually cast one of these spells? For example, the Dire Winter spell has a spellcraft DC of 319. Why bother even creating such a spell? Are epic level characters expected to have items granting bonuses (totaling hundreds of points) to their spellcraft checks, or do they just need to be level ~250-300 with a stupidly high ability modifier?

That's a question that's been asked many times, by many people, since the ELH came out... and we have yet to receive an answer. I think (I can't recall for sure) someone once said it was an example of how far you could take the system, but that's crap, IMO. Oooh, I can make a spell with a 4-digit DC that no one can ever cast - but it's really cool!! *sigh*

Otherwise I got no clue. All the epic DCs tend to leave me wondering how any character who isn't a one-trick-pony optimization and/or pun-pun would pull them off.

The lower-end ones (up to around 100) aren't too hard to get, especially if you use a magic item that grants +30 Spellcraft. Over on the Wizards boards, I've seen people mitigate the DCs all the way down to 0, which just proves, IMO, how badly designed the system is.

I would have much preferred that they simply continued spell casting progression from 10th level on, and provided rules for determing a spell's level based upon what it does.

You mean like this?

 

[saucercrab]

I've heard talk before (or prob' read it online somewhere), that a caster first casts a spell that increases his Spellcraft skill (this spell having a very long duration), then cast the aforementioned mega-DC epic spells.

The initial boost spell would have a relatively low DC because of lengthy casting time, multiple extra casters needed, backlash damage, etc.

 

[Cheiromancer]

It's surprisingly difficult to design a good epic level system.

No offense to the ones that are already out there, but they just don't trip my trigger.

 

[RainOfSteel]

You mean like this?

Is there an html preview of that I can view?

 

[Aaron L]

The Epic spellcasting system is designed to make long, ritual spells with multiple casters. It handles mythals and the like pretty well, I think. The kind of magic that takes a month to cast in a ceremony involving a hundred wizards that sinks a continent or summons a god.

If you're trying to make quick casting mega attacks spells, it doesn't work so well. That's pretty much what spell levels 1-9 cover. I see it as two different types of spellcasting, lesser "combat magic," and then the really big mountain moving, earth shattering magic.

 

[RainOfSteel]

The Epic spellcasting system is designed to make long, ritual spells with multiple casters. [...]

If you're trying to make quick casting mega attacks spells, it doesn't work so well.

A number of the spells in the listsings of the ELH are exactly that type of spell (Momento Mori, Ruin, etc.).

Perhaps we really need a more extensive list of examples.

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I don't know, though. I have an knee-jerk negative reaction to all mechanics involving paying XP to power them. It implies that XP is a tradable/fungible commodity. If you can pay it to power things, you can steal it from elsewhere. XP-vampirism, anyone? Why should I adventure, when I can just suck the lifeforce out of others to go up in levels, or to pay for spells and items? (The answer, of course, is that I don't like this mechanic in the first place.)