Epic spellcasting: Is it really feasible?
- Thread starter ChimericDream
- Start date
ChimericDream
First Post
Well, I'd rather not overhaul the entire epic spell system, since I've already got my hands full coming up with a bunch of other mechanics. What I think I may do is use some of the comments and suggestions here. I don't want to come up with spells that are mitigated to the point of being too simple, but it will just have to be something that there needs to be a balance for.
Looks like some of my epic NPCs will have items enhancing their spellcraft checks, though. I'm also working on epic versions of the fox's cunning, bull's strength, etc, that will add +20 to the ability (+10 to the mod). Coupled with other items and magics, I think I can reasonably justify somewhat higher spellcraft DCs for epic spells.
Looks like some of my epic NPCs will have items enhancing their spellcraft checks, though. I'm also working on epic versions of the fox's cunning, bull's strength, etc, that will add +20 to the ability (+10 to the mod). Coupled with other items and magics, I think I can reasonably justify somewhat higher spellcraft DCs for epic spells.
Kerrick
First Post
Tried posting this yesterday, but the boards crashed on me 
No, but it's only 7 pages long, and a Word file.
I rather think that it's easier to make long ritual spells with multiple casters because of the way the system's designed. They could have easily started with a base casting time of one round, instead of a full minute, and it would have been easier to make blaster-style spells as well as the long, drawn-out rituals.
Now, don't get me wrong, I agree that epic magic is more suited to the large-scale, world-shaking effects but there's no reason epic can't have blaster spells too. With the dice caps, most non-epic evocation effects become pretty well useless after L30 or so, due to energy resistance/immunity, high saves, and huge amounts of hit points.
Agreed. XP is tossed around way too much as a mitigating factor for epic spells, which makes it less... "valuable", I guess. I mean, pre-epic, pre-ELH, burning XP for a spell was a big deal. You didn't cast wishes very often if you had to burn 5000 XP, did you? Not only that, but it's just bad design - you're paying XP for a spell twice - once when you develop it (and who came up with THAT idea, anyway?) and once when you cast it.
Again, that's because they start with a 1-minute casting time, and you have to jack up the cost to drop it to 1 round (and even more for one action).
No, but it's only 7 pages long, and a Word file.
I rather think that it's easier to make long ritual spells with multiple casters because of the way the system's designed. They could have easily started with a base casting time of one round, instead of a full minute, and it would have been easier to make blaster-style spells as well as the long, drawn-out rituals.
Now, don't get me wrong, I agree that epic magic is more suited to the large-scale, world-shaking effects but there's no reason epic can't have blaster spells too. With the dice caps, most non-epic evocation effects become pretty well useless after L30 or so, due to energy resistance/immunity, high saves, and huge amounts of hit points.
Agreed. XP is tossed around way too much as a mitigating factor for epic spells, which makes it less... "valuable", I guess. I mean, pre-epic, pre-ELH, burning XP for a spell was a big deal. You didn't cast wishes very often if you had to burn 5000 XP, did you? Not only that, but it's just bad design - you're paying XP for a spell twice - once when you develop it (and who came up with THAT idea, anyway?) and once when you cast it.
Again, that's because they start with a 1-minute casting time, and you have to jack up the cost to drop it to 1 round (and even more for one action).
RainOfSteel said:
There are other examples...just not in that book....Dragons of Faerun, and several other FR supplements include viable samples that are better examples.....more of the "create mythal", or create a spell that makes all dragons on the planet go insane every 100 years" type things.
I think for utterly deadly combat spells, the expanded spell progression feats that let you start getting lvl 10, 11, etc. spells via metamagic on 1-9 spells is more the way to go. With a lvl 14 spell, for instance, you could have a maximized and empowered meteor swarm, for instance, which is no laughing matter.
Banshee
IceFractal
First Post
It's not just that the DCs are high, it's that the cost is ridiculously high as a result. Who the hell wants to spend all their wealth on spells they can only cast twice a day and that probably have lots of XP and backlash cost to be usable in combat?
There's one thing the Epic system is good for, and that's long-lasting effects using rituals. My goal when developing Epic spells is generally to reduce the DC to 1. Because time/gold/xp spent developing Epic spells is time better spent making more minions.
Spell's I've actually seen in play:
Atrak's Locus - Blocked disjunction and dispelling, and mitigated antimagic fields.
Manifold Mind of the Master - Linked the caster with all their possible selves in other timelines, forming a kind of hivemind. In practical terms, granted a huge bonus to Intelligence.
Minor Shield - A mythal that gave comprehensive protections against nearly any type of attack, as well as several retributive defensives.
All of these were long-duration and required some rather complex casting with assistants.
There's one thing the Epic system is good for, and that's long-lasting effects using rituals. My goal when developing Epic spells is generally to reduce the DC to 1. Because time/gold/xp spent developing Epic spells is time better spent making more minions.
Spell's I've actually seen in play:
Atrak's Locus - Blocked disjunction and dispelling, and mitigated antimagic fields.
Manifold Mind of the Master - Linked the caster with all their possible selves in other timelines, forming a kind of hivemind. In practical terms, granted a huge bonus to Intelligence.
Minor Shield - A mythal that gave comprehensive protections against nearly any type of attack, as well as several retributive defensives.
All of these were long-duration and required some rather complex casting with assistants.
Aluvial
Explorer
I don't have a lot of experience with these things, but I didn't go for any of the premade spells that were in the book.
I have a group that reached epic levels after 4 years of play. Right now the NPC mage that I run with the group has reached 22nd level. I took the Epic Spellcasting Feat at 21st level, but never really developed anything with it, I honestly didn't have the time.
But now that the group has a lot of downtime around the holidays, I took a look and saw that I might not be able to cast a DC 319 but I could achieve somewhere around a 30 or 35 on a regular basis.
Going into the spells seeds, I designed some pretty resonable low level spells. Now I have two of them. Not bad for an Epic Caster who can cast 3 Epic Spells.
One is a basic attack, and the other is a basic defense.
Lot's of fun in a fight! Sure, I don't see the point of these uber characters with uber spells, but it does have a use with an NPC you want to pit against a more than high level group. A CR 35 caster against 8 or 9 PC's all at level 21 and 22 is a fun fight.
Aluvial
I have a group that reached epic levels after 4 years of play. Right now the NPC mage that I run with the group has reached 22nd level. I took the Epic Spellcasting Feat at 21st level, but never really developed anything with it, I honestly didn't have the time.
But now that the group has a lot of downtime around the holidays, I took a look and saw that I might not be able to cast a DC 319 but I could achieve somewhere around a 30 or 35 on a regular basis.
Going into the spells seeds, I designed some pretty resonable low level spells. Now I have two of them. Not bad for an Epic Caster who can cast 3 Epic Spells.
One is a basic attack, and the other is a basic defense.
Lot's of fun in a fight! Sure, I don't see the point of these uber characters with uber spells, but it does have a use with an NPC you want to pit against a more than high level group. A CR 35 caster against 8 or 9 PC's all at level 21 and 22 is a fun fight.
Aluvial
When a fighter gets to 21st level, his attack progression slows way down (gets cut in half). I have thought about expanding the wizard's spell table out to, say, 20th level spells, and having the rate of aquisition about half the previous rate (to match the fighter's slower rate).
Then, I was thinking of making up a bunch of spells, using the existing spells as templates. The DMG gives us tables for damage dice at each level, so I was going to use those, but, again, slow the progression. And, I was going to look at spells that have chains to make new ones. For example, there's a Limited Wish (7) and a Wish (9), so why not a Greater Wish (11)? Take the differences between the Lmited Wish and the Wish, and advance in the other direction to get a Greater Wish. Similarly, there are mass variants of several spells, and some spells are just too high level to have a mass version, but not if we exceed 9th level spells.
So long as the progression of power is kept in check with other classes, I don't see the problem. Spells above 9th level can just have their power curve contained (much as there are only 4 iterative attacks based on the BAB), it's just a matter of attentiveness on the DM's part.
Dave
Then, I was thinking of making up a bunch of spells, using the existing spells as templates. The DMG gives us tables for damage dice at each level, so I was going to use those, but, again, slow the progression. And, I was going to look at spells that have chains to make new ones. For example, there's a Limited Wish (7) and a Wish (9), so why not a Greater Wish (11)? Take the differences between the Lmited Wish and the Wish, and advance in the other direction to get a Greater Wish. Similarly, there are mass variants of several spells, and some spells are just too high level to have a mass version, but not if we exceed 9th level spells.
So long as the progression of power is kept in check with other classes, I don't see the problem. Spells above 9th level can just have their power curve contained (much as there are only 4 iterative attacks based on the BAB), it's just a matter of attentiveness on the DM's part.
Dave
Kerrick said:
I had a prototype system back in 2004 here.
I updated the system later in 2004. We've been using this system with great success since then. I submitted a manuscript to EN Publishing in early 2005 that includes updated rules and hundreds of spells, including those from the SRD converted to a levelled system.
The announcement was made in this thread, but I haven't heard word since. *me casts summon Hellhound*
Your tables, ritual spells, etc., look a lot like what I had come up with.
lukelightning
First Post
Epic spells seem mostly like a mechanic for DMs to explain obstacles to epic PCs. "You can't break the door...it has an epic spell protecting it..."
Kerrick
First Post
I glanced over it when it came out - I always check out other epic spell systems, to see what other folks are doing - but mine was completely developed on my own. The spell modification tables are from the epic system, modified and expanded (they appeared in my first version), and the spell progressions are different too.
Your system looks more like Feanaro's - you figure up the Spellcraft DC, then convert to levels (your formula's off, BTW - it should be divide by 10 and add 7). Mine's a straight level-based system, where you take a base spell effect and tack on levels with metamagic and modifications.
