Epic Spells: Caster Level instead of skills?

DanMcS said:


You're right, that is odd, why didn't the designers think of that? Wait, wait, they did, there is an option in the book to use the appropriate spellcasting ability score (wis for clerics, cha for sorcerors, etc) instead of int, for epic spellcasting spellcraft checks.

I think he was referring to having skill points. Meaning, if his cleric had a low Knowledge religion skill, then he suddenly needed to pump points into it to be able to weild epic spells. And clerics only get 2+int per level so it can be pretty tough.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Hashmalum said:
And just watch the look on that player's face when the spell he spent up to 100 days casting and/or spent thousands of XP on is wiped out by a simple greater dispelling. Remember, epic spells have no special resistance to being dispelled other than their (presumably high) caster level. Also, what does this have to do with switching from skill checks to caster level checks? If you use the same system but apply it to a different base number, you'll still have people abusing the mitigating factors.

Actually, that's another problem with epic levels, no ability to dispel magic. After level 30, greater dispelling becomes uselss (but that's another thread).

I thought of the same thing regarding the "cost" of dispelling then recasting an epic spell, but the ones I've seen require no XP, do a pretty decent amount of backlash (which is trivial), and involve ritual casting (which is not really a problem if you just use a few simulacrums). Again, DC 1 spells, cheap to create. Perhaps the only problem is the long casting time, which has always struck me as odd why those extra 11 minutes of a 40 day casting reduces the DC by so much...

Switching to caster level can help. First, it eliminates the +Spellcraft item problems. Second, it doesn't penalize for low skill points (ex clerics). Next, the numbers themselves would be much lower. I'm not advocating simply replacing the spellcraft DCs with caster level, there need to be additional tweaks (naturally).
 

Actually, that's another problem with epic levels, no ability to dispel magic. After level 30, greater dispelling becomes uselss (but that's another thread).
Hmm. One can create epic spells with the dispel seed to deal with that, but that does nothing for the numerous epic level monsters that have greater dispelling as a spell-like ability. But yes, that is another thread.
I thought of the same thing regarding the "cost" of dispelling then recasting an epic spell, but the ones I've seen require no XP, do a pretty decent amount of backlash (which is trivial), and involve ritual casting (which is not really a problem if you just use a few simulacrums).
The simulacrum issue is a genuine problem, yes. Switching to caster levels will do nothing to help it, however. Only modifying the ritual casting rules and/or the simulacrum spell itself will do that (as the existing ritual casting rules go by level of the spell slot sacrificed by the additional participants rather than their skill ranks).

I would suggest capping the level of the simulacrum and abolishing contributions of lower-level slots to the ritual. Doesn't it seem silly that a mighty spellcaster of legend, casting a spell that breaks the boundaries of conventional magical knowledge, might need the contribution of a 1st-level apprentice, casting a spell just one level removed from a mere cantrip? Yet under the existing epic spell rules, this is a possibility. "Quickly, my apprentice, cast magic missile so I can smite the orcs from the face of the world once and for all with Golin's Grandiose Genocide!"

As for the backlash damage, I would strongly suggest a house rule that backlash damage can't be applied to any spell that also has a long casting time; any spell with a casting time more than one round is not intended to be used in combat, and outside of combat the backlash damage is meaningless. In fact, I think I'll add this one to my own house rules right now. (You could also make backlash damage more difficult to recover than normal damage, but that's a less elegant and more rule-heavy solution.)
Again, DC 1 spells, cheap to create. Perhaps the only problem is the long casting time, which has always struck me as odd why those extra 11 minutes of a 40 day casting reduces the DC by so much...
Heh. That is sort of amusing.
Switching to caster level can help. First, it eliminates the +Spellcraft item problems.
Eliminating +Spellcraft items does that just as well. And it doesn't have the problems involved in creating one house rule (substituting caster level for skill ranks) to fix the problems caused by another house rule (+Spellcraft items).
Second, it doesn't penalize for low skill points (ex clerics).
I don't feel this is a problem. I already made the case for skill-dependent magic in an earlier post. In any case, if your players hate it that much it should be no problem for an epic cleric to pick up a headband of intellect to get those extra skill points. There's also a certain matter of class style involved; to put it simply, wizards are the ones stereotyped as diligent researchers and theoreticians, whereas clerics are not, and epic magic is (theoretically) highly advanced, complicated, and obscure.
Next, the numbers themselves would be much lower. I'm not advocating simply replacing the spellcraft DCs with caster level, there need to be additional tweaks (naturally).
If you'd present some of these additional tweaks you mention, then maybe we could look at the whole revised system and see how it works together. In that case, perhaps the thread needs a new name?
 

I was putting the idea out there as a possible solution to the problems I have encountered with the system. I haven't committed toward actually implementing the system, but that would be the next step. I could try it, but there doesn't seem to be much interest in it, and there are alternate solutions as well (such as simply having 10th+ spells). Many have simply thrown out the system, whereas I do not even touch it with the characters I create.
 

True, you could continuously throw 17th+ level spellcasters at the party with one Mordenkainen's disjunction spell after another rolling off their tongues, but this would soon get really, really old. Mordenkainen's disjunction also zaps better balanced items just as well as it zaps overpowered junk, so it isn't exactly an optimal solution.

True, true, but you see my point. Of course, like you also said, it's the DM's responsibility to limit the amount and type of magic items handed out so that this situation doesn't occur in the first place.

Actually, that's another problem with epic levels, no ability to dispel magic. After level 30, greater dispelling becomes uselss (but that's another thread).

That's why they have... superb dispelling! Gee, you didn't see that one coming, did you? :P

There's also a certain matter of class style involved; to put it simply, wizards are the ones stereotyped as diligent researchers and theoreticians, whereas clerics are not, and epic magic is (theoretically) highly advanced, complicated, and obscure.

Yes, but clerics wield the power of their gods - they have as much right to epic spells as wizards, albeit in a (possibly) different form. Besides, high-level clerics are no strangers doing research in dusty old tomes - many churches in literature are portrayed as having vast libraries of books and tomes, many of them hidden away for centuries. I could see an epic cleric calling down the wrath of Odin, for example - a storm of lightning bolts, hail, thunder, and rain - or summoning an army of undead, or causing a vast wave of negative energy to sweep across the land.
 

Kerrick said:
That's why they have... superb dispelling! Gee, you didn't see that one coming, did you? :P

That costs 3.77 million GP, just to research the spell. In addition, it only pushes the problem back farther.... (admittedly going beyond 40th level play is a little dicey). I'd advocate removing the cap on greater dispelling.
 

Yes, but clerics wield the power of their gods - they have as much right to epic spells as wizards, albeit in a (possibly) different form.
I'm somewhat conflicted about this. On one hand, yes, it makes sense that really powerful priests can wield miracles beyond standard mortal magic; I loved the quest spell mechanic (if not many of the actual quest spells) in the AD&D 2nd Edition book Tome of Magic for this reason. On the other hand, the game mechanics don't work well. In a world with epic rules, you'll either need to rework the gods and perhaps even the base divinity rules so we don't see the oddity of mortal priests casting greater spells than their patron god is capable of, or automatically ascend mortals (or otherwise stop their advancement) who reach that level of power (personally, I favor the latter, but that solution doesn't work as well for people who are running settings where there is no divine ascension).
Besides, high-level clerics are no strangers doing research in dusty old tomes - many churches in literature are portrayed as having vast libraries of books and tomes, many of them hidden away for centuries.
Some of them, but not all of them. In the real world, the Vatican has the largest collection in the world of occult literature (and, it is rumored, pornography), but I can't see Loki's or Erythynul's priests having scads of books hanging around. In-game, one could make the distinction by giving the priests of more scholarly religions domains with domain powers that give free skill points towards certain skills, or giving them access to church-specific PrCs (such as Researcher of Boccob). This might seem convoluted compared to simply changing the epic spell rules, but I see this sort of fleshing-out and adding flavor to the campaign's religions as being a worthy goal in itself.
 

Hashmalum, I'd like to point out to you my friend Upper_Krust's book, the Immortals Handbook, due out as soon as the Epic Level Handbook and Deities and Demigods makes it to the SRD. It's about playing immortals, if you didn't guess =).

Here is the thread's 3rd incarnation http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=44070&perpage=40&pagenumber=3

However, we got sorta sidetracked with UK's challege rating/EL calculation system, and made a thread here that's getting pretty long too. http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45989

Join the fun, and learn about his book.

Eldorian Antar
 

So I've been playing around with a system that would alter caster levels instead of using spellcraft. My initial goal is to allow a 30th level caster cast a 30d6 blast spell with relative ease (as oppose the DC 90 to do 40d6 we have now).

Here's some of my thoughts for the system...

Epic Spellcasting
Requirements: 21+ caster level, 9th level spells
Epic Slots = Caster Level / 10
Free Epic Spell for taking the feat (up to DC Caster Level + 10)

Example seed:
Energy
Evocation [Cold, Electricity, Fire, Force, Sonic]
Base DC: 7
Casting time: 1 action
Range: Long
Area: 20 ft. radius spread
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half
Spell Resistance: Yes

Start with 6d6 (Cold, Electricity, Fire) Or 2d6 (Force, Sonic)
- Add a die for +1 DC (Cold, Electricity, Fire)
- Add a die for +3 DC (Force, Sonic)
Restrictions
- Cone must have Close range

The attatchment has is an excel spreadsheet (zipped) of what adjustments would look like. The basic idea is that duration, casting time, area/target are all adjustable to varying degree, limited by individual seeds. The numbers are rough to say the least, but it is to give an idea of how such a caster level system would work.

From here, it would be a matter of making different seeds in terms of caster level and seeing how the well the adjustments work out. I eliminated ritual casting for now, as well as seriously toned down the possible mitigating factors, but input is always welcome.

Again, this is a *rough* idea. Keep that in mind.
 

Attachments



Remove ads

Top