Epic Spells Lame?

[Question]

I think we desperately need a 3.5 ELH.

Colossuses are completely imba. They are like CR 50 for the sheer annoyance. Good luck killing that thing without magic. That said i suppose if your DM throws you a few artifact weapons and epic spells, you could, thereotically, do it.

Hecatoneiruses are completley silly. Monsters or PCs near its CR should be able to come up with enough DR to laugh at 100 non-magical greatswords. God im not even sure how a DM is supposed to roll attack and damages for 100 greatswords. Per round.

Epic spells are totally weak. The spellcraft DC to cast them is insane. Not to mention a 30th level PC can(IIRC) just barely research epic mage armor, one of the most simple epic spells, and not go down a level. You need like a item that gives you +50 bonus to spellcraft to cast more epic spells, and thats assuming a level 30 caster. Lets be a bit...realistic here folks.

XP costs for epic items are CRAZYYYY.....i cannot imagine anything less than 40th level PCs being able to afford to craft epic items without de-leveling.

And look at the epic special abilities you can put on weapons. Retarded. Not only do you need a minimum of +6 to put them, most of them are +8 market mod.......for......GET THIS.......a burst ability that does +3d6 elemental damage on normal hits and multiplies on criticals. You cant even afford these at level 30, and there are tons of monsters below CR30 that will easily laugh at 3d6 elemental damage.

 

[Zimbel16]

Both

I knew epic spells were strange but what is wrong with this scenario? Is the metamagic feat just too good, or are epic spells really that bad?

1) It would be difficult to cast a LV 6 spell as a LV 10 caster. At LV 11, though, this would be easy - so your main point stands.
2) Animus blast also has a worse area of effect and a weaker range.
3) At the point that you can cast Animus Blast, the seketons (or the zombies, for that matter) will be irrelevant except in very strange situations.
4) With creating your own magic items (i.e. using the provided formulas), a +49 spellcraft is not difficult to get. Even without doing so, it's pretty easy for a Wizard to get into the 40s by the early 20s.

Now to answer your question:
Both are true.

As a LV 6 spell, your suggested combination is far better than, say Summon Monster VI, at least in a number of situations. After all, the Zombies remain under your control after the combat ends, and each zombie may be a CR of up to 6.

Animus blast is a weak Epic spell - you pay an outragous cost for a nearly meaningless side-effect on a weak primary effect. Unfortunately, most of the epic spells given are weak.

What are epic spells good for?

1) They can (sometimes) pierce antimagic.
2) At high levels, you may be able to get better save DCs for your death-type magic spells (or anything that ends an encounter).
3) Certain defensive spells (Ex: Epic Mage Armor) are very good. Note that its cost is a fraction of what you'd need for a simular magic item.
4) Effects you can't get in any other manner. Ex: Safe Time, Eclipse
5) Rules abuse. Go for a single nice effect with Permanent duration and as many negative modifiers as you can pile on - Your DC should be in the range of 0, which makes the costs very low.

What are they bad for?

1) Dealing damage. As an example, if you want to deal damage, you're far better off pumping feats into additional spell levels, and using quicken/maximize/Empower/... to maximize your damage output.
2) Multiple simultaneous effects. You're typically better off quickening the second effect.
3) Almost anything you can get from normal spells with metamagic feats at that same level.

 

[Stalker0]

Epic spells can definately be wonky though. I had a player in my one shot epic game who used the ward seed to make himself immune to antimagic field, and of course had an antimagic field on himself all the time...things like that.

Taught me not to run epic until I was a much much more experienced dm

 

[Zimbel16]

ELH problems

I think we desperately need a 3.5 ELH.

Note that the SRD has been updated for 3.5. that dosen't mean, however, that most of the below issues are addressed.

Colossuses are completely imba. They are like CR 50 for the sheer annoyance. Good luck killing that thing without magic. That said i suppose if your DM throws you a few artifact weapons and epic spells, you could, thereotically, do it.

There actually are a few tricks you can use; for example, you could surround it with Prismatic walls, which are immune to Antimagic (once cast). Simuarly, you could lead one onto a weak structure, and atack the structure far below it (many times, to kill it though falling damage). Or you could keep collapsing the cave above it. But, yes, they are annoying. Note that if you're using the 3.5 update, their DR no longer makes them nearly immune to non-magical (for all practical purposes artifact) weapons.

Hecatoneiruses are completley silly. Monsters or PCs near its CR should be able to come up with enough DR to laugh at 100 non-magical greatswords. God im not even sure how a DM is supposed to roll attack and damages for 100 greatswords. Per round.

I typically take a mean; for example if there are 100 attacks with a 35% chance of hitting, then I declare 35 hits.

Epic spells are totally weak. The spellcraft DC to cast them is insane. Not to mention a 30th level PC can(IIRC) just barely research epic mage armor, one of the most simple epic spells, and not go down a level. You need like a item that gives you +50 bonus to spellcraft to cast more epic spells, and thats assuming a level 30 caster. Lets be a bit...realistic here folks.

By the item creation formulas, it appears that you can get a +30 to spellcraft item for a measly 90,000 GP (or 45,000 GP, 3,600 XP). With a DC of 46, Epic Mage Armor should be pretty easy at LV 21 for anyone who also put max ranks into spellcraft with one of these items (or is just a Wiz min/maxed for Int with max spellcraft). The XP cost is also only 16,560 - so it's more like 3/4 of a LV at LV 21.

XP costs for epic items are CRAZYYYY.....i cannot imagine anything less than 40th level PCs being able to afford to craft epic items without de-leveling.

And look at the epic special abilities you can put on weapons. Retarded. Not only do you need a minimum of +6 to put them, most of them are +8 market mod.......for......GET THIS.......a burst ability that does +3d6 elemental damage on normal hits and multiplies on criticals. You cant even afford these at level 30, and there are tons of monsters below CR30 that will easily laugh at 3d6 elemental damage.

Actually, the minimum cost in XP to create an epic (non-scroll) magic items is in the 12,000+ range, which is plausible for LV 21 or so. I actually have more problems with the GP costs than the XP costs, at least until you hit the multi-million GP items.

On the other hand, look at the cost of a +6 weapon (720,000). Now look at the number of creatures CR 21 or less that require epic weapons to pierce their DR. Finally, note how long it will be before your PC can afford that +6 weapon (which also presumably replaces your old weapon that was +10 or so in total bonuses, and far better other than its ability to pierce Epic).

I should note that the Icy blast type abilities are only +6. I agree that they are still far too expensive (2,880,000 for a +6 Icy Blast weapon).

 

[Zimbel16]

Immunity

Epic spells can definately be wonky though. I had a player in my one shot epic game who used the ward seed to make himself immune to antimagic field, and of course had an antimagic field on himself all the time...things like that.

Taught me not to run epic until I was a much much more experienced dm

For future reference, Immunity to Antimagic Field does nothing, except to prevent you from winking out due to one if you are a summoned creature. This is because Immunity effectively means that you always make your SR check, and for Antimagic field (save for that one case) there is no SR check.

 

[Jack Simth]

Simple counter; Epic Ward to exclude all spells of a particular level and below - most especially the AMF. Or better - he's immune, so his buff spells stay up, but his spells are not - so no casting on others from inside.

 

[Jack Simth]

For future reference, Immunity to Antimagic Field does nothing, except to prevent you from winking out due to one if you are a summoned creature. This is because Immunity effectively means that you always make your SR check, and for Antimagic field (save for that one case) there is no SR check.

The Epic Ward Seed doesn't have that clause; it writes itself from scratch without it. That rule is from the non-epic Spell Immunity and Greater Spell Immunity.

 

[Jack Simth]

On the other hand, look at the cost of a +6 weapon (720,000). Now look at the number of creatures CR 21 or less that require epic weapons to pierce their DR. Finally, note how long it will be before your PC can afford that +6 weapon (which also presumably replaces your old weapon that was +10 or so in total bonuses, and far better other than its ability to pierce Epic).

Look at the cost of a +4 Bane (Your Target) weapon. Against the target, they act as +6 weapons, and give an extra +2d6 damage, but only to the specific type of target. And 14 of them cost about the same as a single +6 weapon. Pity there's 31 different types listed under the Bane weapon property.

Of course, that also leads to "golf bag syndrome"....

 

[Zimbel16]

The Epic Ward Seed doesn't have that clause; it writes itself from scratch without it.

True, but Epic Seed Ward does not grant immunity.

Note the bolded sections below:

Seed: Ward
Abjuration
Spellcraft DC: 14
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: Touch
Target or Effect: Touched creature or object of 2,000 lb. or less; or 10-ft.-radius spherical emanation, centered on you
Duration: 24 hours
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes
...
A ward against magic creates an immobile, faintly shimmering magical sphere (with radius 10 feet) that surrounds the caster and excludes all spell effects of up to 1st level. Alternatively, the caster can ward just the target and not create the radius effect. For each additional level of spells to be excluded, increase the Spellcraft DC by +20 (but see below). The area or effect of any such spells does not include the area of the ward, and such spells fail to affect any target within the ward. This includes spell-like abilities and spells or spell-like effects from magic items. However, any type of spell can be cast through or out of the ward. The caster can leave and return to the protected area without penalty (unless the spell specifically targets a creature and does not provide a radius effect). The ward could be brought down by a targeted dispel magic spell. Epic spells using the dispel seed may bring down a ward if the enemy spellcaster succeeds at a caster level check. The ward may also be brought down with a targeted epic spell using the destroy seed if the enemy spellcaster succeeds at a caster level check.

Instead of creating an epic spell that uses the ward seed to nullify all spells of a given level and lower, the caster can create a ward that nullifies a specific spell (or specific set of spells). For each specific spell so nullified, increase the Spellcraft DC by +2 per spell level above 1st.

So to me it seems that you get one of the following:
1) An immobile 10' radius sphere with the ability to ignore antimagic shell.
2) A mobile ability to ignore antimagic shell that only includes the creature.

The problem (for most PCs) with case #2 is that if they also had Antimagic Shell up, they'd hit all their magic items with antimagic. Or am I missing something?

 

[Zimbel16]

Look at the cost of a +4 Bane (Your Target) weapon. Against the target, they act as +6 weapons, and give an extra +2d6 damage, but only to the specific type of target. And 14 of them cost about the same as a single +6 weapon. Pity there's 31 different types listed under the Bane weapon property.

Of course, that also leads to "golf bag syndrome"....

I like this solution. Of course, it would be even nicer to have a +6 weapon cost so few gold that a LV 21 or so PC might be able to afford it.