Epic Spells per day progression?

[Shin Okada]

From SRD

For spellcasters, caster level continues to increase after 20th level. However, spells per day don't increase after 20th level. The only way to gain additional spells per day (other than the bonus spells gained from a high ability score) is to select the Improved Spell Capacity epic feat.

And DMG P.207 also says,

However, spells per day don't increase after 20th level.

Then, Complete Warrior P.150 says,

However, spells per day don't increase after character level 20th.

Then, Complete Divine P.89 and Complete Arcane P.190 say,

However, spells per day don't increase after 20th caster level.

Then again, Complete Adventurer P. 190 says,

However, spells per day don't increase after character level 20th.

Would someone please tell me what is going on? Character level and caster level (and maybe class level?) are totally different concepts. That will make a biiiig difference in epic character build.

And, if that means caster level, how Practiced Spellcaster feat affects it? Will multiclassed caster lose right to gain higher level spells due to having Caster Level of 20th before gaining the highest level spells? How about Hierophant?

 

[DanMcS]

They mean class level.

 

[andargor]

They mean class level.

I concur.

Andargor

 

[Shin Okada]

Ah class level. And effective class for spell casting class in case someone has "+1 existing spellcasting class" type prestige class, right?

Seems to be the most reasonable interpretation. Are there any official clarification for it?

 

[Nonlethal Force]

I would elaborate a little bit more on your last statement, although it certainly isn't wrong. I would make it a little more clear that by effective class as the sum of the actual class levels and the number of +1s that they have received along the way. Because - as I am sure you are well aware, many PrCs give partial progression. You'd want to effectively ignore all the levels that don't award a +1 to existing spellcaster class.

I guess I am just elaborating that it isn't even so easy as saying add the PrC levels and the class levels in all cases. I think that you probably know that - just stating it so that it is clear.

 

[andargor]

Ah class level. And effective class for spell casting class in case someone has "+1 existing spellcasting class" type prestige class, right?

Seems to be the most reasonable interpretation. Are there any official clarification for it?

For spellcasters, caster level continues to increase after 20th level. However, spells per day don't increase after 20th level. The only way to gain additional spells per day (other than the bonus spells gained from a high ability score) is to select the Improved Spell Capacity epic feat.

Once you reach caster level 20 in any spellcasting class,
you no longer gain any spells per day without the
appropriate feat, right? Does a wizard of level 21 or
higher, however, still learn two spells for every level
gained even though she gets no additional spells to cast
each day? What about other level-based benefits?

Yes to both. Once you reach 20th-level in a spellcasting
class, you no longer gain any more spells per day for that
class. The Improved Spell Capacity feat, however, will give
you more daily spells. No matter what spellcasting class you
have, your caster level continues to increase as you add levels
to that class beyond 20. As noted on pages 16–17 of the Epic
Level Handbook, a wizard still gains two new spells to add to
her spellbook at each level, and a wizard’s familiar continues
to improve. The wizard also gets 2 (+ Intelligence bonus)
skill points at each level beyond 20 and gets save and attack
bonus as an epic level character.

The limit here is obviously spells per day, even though portions of the text from the SRD and the FAQ entry are either confusing or wrong ("caster level 20 in any spellcasting class", what does an Archmage do if she took Spell Power? ).

So, yes, anything that contributes spells per day to a class (the class itself or a PrC) is limited to the 20th level amount of spells per day for the base class. Caster level progresses normally past 20th level.

Andargor

 

[Bagpuss]

They mean class level.

I don't think they mean caster or character level reading that bit from the ELH, must be class level.

Basically if say wizard is you base class then they mean that your spells per day continue to improve until you reach what would have been allowed for a 20th level wizard.

Say you took 5 levels of Fighter and then 15th levels of wizard. Then you continued with Epic levels for 5 more, you would then get access to the 9th level spells you didn't have access to as a 20th level character. When you reached character level 26 you couldn't increase your spells per day without a feat.

 

[Shin Okada]

I think they mean caster level reading that bit from the ELH.

So you mean, like this?

Assume there is a Cleric 12/War Priest 8. He casts spells as a 16th-level cleric and now he is a 20th-level character.

If he has Practiced Spellcaster feat, his Caster Level (only) is already 20th. So his spells per day stops forever. He can get more Cleric levels or War Priest levels later. But he can never cast 9th-level spells.

Instead, if he does not have Practiced Spellcaster feat, his Caster Level is 16 th. So, if he adds more Cleric or Warpriest levels, he can get higher spell slots and eventually get 9th-level spells.

 

[Bagpuss]

Tell me about the Practiced Spellcaster Feat, I've not got my books to hand. I've edited my post above (I think before you reply), I don't think a feat should penalise the player so they can't mean caster level. But it also seems clear that they don't mean character level. That leaves Class level I suppose, and not really even class level as in the example above he's still only a 12th level cleric, they mean effective class level for spells per day.

 

[Shin Okada]

Tell me about the Practiced Spellcaster Feat, I've not got my books to hand. I've edited my post above (I think before you reply), I don't think a feat should penalise the player so they can't mean caster level. But it also seems clear that they don't mean character level. That leaves Class level I suppose.

Practiced Spellcaster feat gives you +4 to caster level of one class, but the total caster level is capped by your total HD. So, for example, Fighter 4/Sorcerer 1 with Practiced Spellcaster feat still know spells as a 1st-level sorcerer, and has spell slots for 1st-level sorcerer. But his caster level is 5th and thus he can shoot 3 magic missiles per casting.

Hierophant prestige class also gives higher caster level (only) but does not give you better Spells Known or Spells per day.

So if the correct interpretation is "Caster Level", the rule may penalize some build.