Escaping from combat, or keeping villains alive

[Sejs]

Seriously? First answer?

Minions.

Preferably disposable minions.

The players burst onto the scene just as you're about to complete your nefarious deed, calmly turn around, look over one shoulder and tell your second in command "Lieutenant, deal with it". Then walk out.

Don't wait until the last second to leave, leave before the battle is even joined in earnest.

 

[Zustiur]

Stalker0: Jaw droppingly simple. Light armour and run feats for all of the men!

Green Slime: Picking on the fools that give chase sounds like an excellent plan.

Kid Charlemagne: The church bell trick would be very cinematic and well suited to the sort of game I'm trying to run. Expeditious retreat is another likely candidate potion. I don't think Robin will become a spell caster though. Too ill fitting. I don't want my mooks slaughtered too readily either, but more on that below.

Rhun: It is suicidal because I'm thinking in terms of getting away after melee begins. Once the party gets in 'base to base' contact with the bad guys, it's extremely hard to extricate them from combat.

Barak: I think that might really be the key answer. The merry men should either get their way by dint of threat, or should fight for a maximum of 2 rounds, before all running away.

Nonlethal Force: I'm not familiar with symbol spells, other than the 8th level spell in the PHB. I think throwing 8th level spells at a 2nd level party might be deemed a bit unfair don't you? For other situations, ok I get the point. Rope traps and such are more likely here.

Ed Laprade: You're on to something there though. Imtimidate. Bluff. Deception. And a large number of appropriately armed opponents (who in this sort of situation would be using readied actions).

Agent Oracle: You've picked up on another of my usual errors there - giving the party multiple targets. Killing the BBEG is usually my only task for them. I should be focussing more on rescuing the girl and grabbing the loot etc. Using the MBEG to remind them that they're forgetting the objective and thus allowing (or not) him to escape is doublly cool.

Lord Zardoz: This should be almost entirely outdoors. But I'll keep your suggestions on hand just in case.

Endur: Exactly right. This will have to be one of the focus points - the party will be given the option (at least once) of letting the merry men get away with the deed or fighting them whilst outnumbered.

Hussar: I've already decided Tuck will be a druid for that exact reason.

Sejs: Yes, in other situations that would be fine. In this one... the minons are a big part of the story.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

Nonlethal Force: I'm not familiar with symbol spells, other than the 8th level spell in the PHB. I think throwing 8th level spells at a 2nd level party might be deemed a bit unfair don't you? For other situations, ok I get the point. Rope traps and such are more likely here.

For the record ... the Symbol spells are all in the PHB and range from caster level 5 on up. Symbol of Sleep is the lowest one at level 5. And while that spell might be a high level for the party, considering that all it does is incapacitate them from pursuing you - and a few will likely pass the save anyway - I wouldn't think it inappropriate for a BBEG to have the resources to pay for someone else to cast it for him where he wanted it. I certainly would through a Symbol of Pain or Death at a low level party!

Edit:

My last sentence should read: I certainly wouldn't through a Symbol of Pain or Death at a low level party!

Sorry for the obvious type-o

 

[green slime]

This points up one of the more annoying aspects of using movies, etc., for story ideas with D&D. One of Robin's shticks was to surround a group with bowmen and call on them to surrender. Since a longbow at short range can kill the best armored, most experienced knight with one shot in real life only the most foolish (and soon to be dead) adversaries would refuse to surrender. (Then Robin and the Merry Men would feast, then humiliate, them.) But the players know their PCs can survive a few arrows, so they tend to be very reluctant to lose all their equipment and money. Many, in fact, will fight to the death rather than do so!

Sorry for not really contributing to the thread properly, but I felt it ought to be mentioned in case the opportunity actually arises.

This "knowledge" can be sidestepped by introducing savage poisons:

The NPC's have readied attacks to shoot anyone who advances threateningly, with poisoned arrows. Maybe something as simple as a sleep poison, or maybe something worse. (I have a player who almost always starts behaving in "God mode" after a few levels, and incorrectly believes mere arrows can't hurt him.) So they ignore the command to lay down their weapons, and the toughest looking one is hit with a hail of arrows. Each one that does damage requires a DC save, and if you are particularly nasty, increase the save by +2 for each successful hit, as the toxins accumulate.

After a few of these "incidents", even the densest of Players will realise they can't count on ignoring a hail of arrows either.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I think Arwink makes a very good point. Why keep him alive?

It gets a bit unrealistic facing a new MBEG every combat. But, probably more important, it's so the GM doesn't have to redesign a new MBEG for every combat.

I'm not sure why it is tantamount to suicide to flee from the PCs?

PCs can easily figure out who the MBEG in a fight is, especially if he opens his mouth. When the MBEG flees and assuming they're not using teleportation-style magic, they all attack him preferably to other targets. Ranged attackers will switch to target him. Any melee attacker who can get at him without drawing AoOs will.

Frequently, because the MBEG is the toughest or highest level opponent there, there won't be a screen of minions between them by the time they have to flee. Sometimes the PCs and NPCs "attrit" each other (is that a real word?), and then in round four, three quarters of the minions are killed in various ways by PCs with depleted hit points. By the time the MBEG's turn comes up, he has no screen left, and he's facing four or so (wounded) PCs. If he runs, he gets cut down by arrow or Fireball, as it's four against one target (even if there's a couple of minions alive). If he stays back to cast a spell or something, he kills a PC and then gets cut down.

I use a lot of lesser minions to screen my BBEGs' escapes, so maybe that is something you can think about? Of course, my players are fairly realistic, and won't open themselves up to AoO and such just to pursue an opponent. So maybe it has something to do with the players playstyle.

And using a lot of minion is taxing on gaming time, especially the GM's time. IME running a bunch of low-level wimps who can't hit, but each gets a move and attack action, takes way too much time. Players sit there bored as you describe what they're doing.

Stalker0: Jaw droppingly simple. Light armour and run feats for all of the men!

DnD screws light fighters. That just results in minions dying faster, and probably the MBEG as well.

The players burst onto the scene just as you're about to complete your nefarious deed, calmly turn around, look over one shoulder and tell your second in command "Lieutenant, deal with it". Then walk out.

I like this idea. However, the Lt. becomes the MBEG for that encounter, he's not going to survive, and the villain now needs a new Lt. Since the villain was powerful, one wonders why he didn't stick around, at least until things get dangerous.

My former Eberron DM used to throw three or so villains at us. While one would be the "leader" (being smarter and maybe more charismatic than the rest), all three are roughly equal-levelled threats, or at least their levels are close. As a result, it suddenly becomes difficult for the PCs to know who to target. Are you going to go after the sorcerer who has been casting death magic the whole battle when the evil barbarian is chopping you to bits? Probably not, even if the sorcerer is obviously "the leader".

This means more work in the beginning (coming up with three named villains rather than one), but less work in the long run (since one or two are likely to escape).

I have a recurring bad guy who is a spellcaster. So he typically casts one spell on round 1, then flees on round 2 while the rest of the bad guys keep fighting the party.

I think most DMs wouldn't follow this advice because it's less fun for them. What's the point of making the MBEG a spellcaster if he's only casting a single spell?

It's much easier if you plan the escape in advance.

For that to work, don't plan on fleeing when he's at 25% HPs. Plan to flee after, say, 4 rounds. In a hit-and-run attack, it's easy. You -know- when you want the BBEG to run, so even in early round, you position him to be able to run. You always have in mind "ok... So he'll run in 2 rounds.. Can't make him go there." Also, you'll keep back from using resources allies, because you know he'll need them to escape in a few rounds.

I love this advice! I usually used hit point and # of living minions, but I don't really think that would work work. This is probably much better. I'll try it next session.

Indoors it gets a bit trickier. running like hell while sealing doors behind you can handle it.

You need to be within 30 feet of the door

So engage at range ... and run at the first sign of danger.

That doesn't work too well if the MBEG is a heavy fighter, however.

 

[Zustiur]

For the record ... the Symbol spells are all in the PHB and range from caster level 5 on up. Symbol of Sleep is the lowest one at level 5.

Ah. I'm using 3.0 books. So no, there is only 'one' Symbol spell, and it is definately level 8.
That aside, a 5th level spell still indicates NPCs about twice the level I'm thinking of for the BBEG.

Green Slime: I've just added sleep arrows to my list of potential items.

(Psi)SeveredHead: I'm aware of just how weak light armour is in DnD. My players rarely have less than 20 AC by the end of 2nd level. They're just nuts over heavy armour, which is annoying because it always seems to force me to use tricks or opponents that I wouldn't normally want to throw at them.

In this case, I'm willing to give light armour a go for such a one off adventure. Robin's will probably be +1 or +2. The rest, well I'm banking on other things to keep them alive, not just their AC. I suspect my player's are too used to 1HD monsters and warriors instead of fighters. This aught to give them a shock, even in light armour.

Zustiur.

 

[wmasters]

My take on it, which I fully appreciate is not generally accepted D&D philosophy:

Someone that's dropped their weapon and is running, or surrendering, is not fair game for a good character. Killing someone who's helpless, even if they've been fighting you, even if they're as evil as evil comes, is an evil act.

I make this clear to my players. It means that villans that run away get clubbed unconcious and turned into the authorities instead.

Oh, and the armour thing - for a Robin Hood style thing Rogues and Rangers seem appropriate, so light armour seems quite fitting to me as well.

 

[green slime]

Ah. I'm using 3.0 books. So no, there is only 'one' Symbol spell, and it is definately level 8.
That aside, a 5th level spell still indicates NPCs about twice the level I'm thinking of for the BBEG.

Green Slime: I've just added sleep arrows to my list of potential items.

(Psi)SeveredHead: I'm aware of just how weak light armour is in DnD. My players rarely have less than 20 AC by the end of 2nd level. They're just nuts over heavy armour, which is annoying because it always seems to force me to use tricks or opponents that I wouldn't normally want to throw at them.

In this case, I'm willing to give light armour a go for such a one off adventure. Robin's will probably be +1 or +2. The rest, well I'm banking on other things to keep them alive, not just their AC. I suspect my player's are too used to 1HD monsters and warriors instead of fighters. This aught to give them a shock, even in light armour.

Zustiur.

But then those in heavy armour, have no hope of capturing their lightly armoured foes when the foes decide to turn tail and run.

 

[Elfdart]

What's the big deal? If they catch him, they catch him. If they kill him, create a new villain. Any time you place chips on the card table, you can lose them. It's part of the game. If you don't want this villain to get killed, don't put him out there.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

This points up one of the more annoying aspects of using movies, etc., for story ideas with D&D. One of Robin's shticks was to surround a group with bowmen and call on them to surrender. Since a longbow at short range can kill the best armored, most experienced knight with one shot in real life only the most foolish (and soon to be dead) adversaries would refuse to surrender.

As DM, I'd point out, that at short range, a reasonably built 4th level archer could do (on a critical) as much as 45 points of damage - 3d8+15 (+2 for STR bow in STR 14, +2 specialization, +1 Point Blank Shot). That's leaving aside a level of rogue, or a magic arrow, or any other kind of enhancements (an 18 STR longbow, for example). A 3rd level rogue could do as much as 33 on a regular shot (1d8+3+2d6 sneak attack - I'd say if you've got the drop on someone in the classic Robin Hood sense, they're flat-footed), At that low level, that should cause some hesitation.