D&D 4E Essential 4e: Heroes of the Forgotten Lands

[Tony Vargas]

It is once a turn and it's awesome!

The rogue seemed pretty awesome before...

In the past, my Warlord would often use Commander's Striker or Suprise Attack to give the rogue (who had melee training) an extra attack if he wasn't able to hit, or wasn't able to get CA on his turn. I figured getting in his SA was worth spending my action on, and I didn't need to do it /that/ often, since Rogues hit really well, and getting CA isn't that hard.

Now, were I again to play a Warlord along side a rogue, my best option is likely to be granting the Rogue an additional attack every time he has CA. If the rogue is a 'theif' it's pretty nearly hands-down the thing to do. If there's also a slayer...

I think 'Lazy' Warlords would be pretty happy with this.

 

[ObsidianCrane]

Yeah Thieves seem like a no-brainer for extreme damage output.

Human: 18 Dex
Weapon Prof: Rapier
Weapon Expertise: Light Blades

At level 1 you are able to do:
MBA: +8 vs AC 1d8+6
With CA: +10 vs AC 1d8+7+2d6
With Backstab and CA: +13 vs AC +1d8+7+3d6
You can use Human Resolve of course to get another +4... (why yes you hit AC19 on a 2...)

At level 2 you can add Backstabber for:
MBA: +10 vs AC 1d8+6 (7-14 dmg)
With CA: +12 vs AC 3d8+7 (10-31 dmg)
With Backstab and CA: +15 vs AC 3d8+7+1d6

Grab a Subtle Rapier+1 and you get an extra and you are doing CA Attacks of +13 vs AC 3d8+9 at second level. That looks like a lot of reasons to have a Warlord stand on the other side of an enemy and get the Rogue to do the wailing, especially if you have +3 or 4 coming from Int.

In comparison a Human Slayer can only manage (at level 2):
Weapon Proficiency: Fullblade
Weapon Expertise: Heavy Blades
Weapon Focus: Heavy Blades

MBA: +10 vs AC 1d12+8
With Battle Wrath Stance: +10 vs AC 1d12+10 (11-22 dmg)

So the rogue with CA will out damage the Slayer by around 4 points on average each round, but without CA the Rogue falls 5 points behind the Slayer. So if we go for a Commanding Warlord the Rogue is better, but a Directing Warlord likely prefers to have a Slayer around.

 

[shmoo2]

Yeah Thieves seem like a no-brainer for extreme damage output.

Human: 18 Dex
Weapon Prof: Rapier
Weapon Expertise: Light Blades

At level 1 you are able to do:
MBA: +8 vs AC 1d8+6
With CA: +10 vs AC 1d8+7+2d6
With Backstab and CA: +13 vs AC +1d8+7+3d6
You can use Human Resolve of course to get another +4... (why yes you hit AC19 on a 2...)

At level 2 you can add Backstabber for:
MBA: +10 vs AC 1d8+6 (7-14 dmg)
With CA: +12 vs AC 3d8+7 (10-31 dmg)
With Backstab and CA: +15 vs AC 3d8+7+1d6

Grab a Subtle Rapier+1 and you get an extra and you are doing CA Attacks of +13 vs AC 3d8+9 at second level. That looks like a lot of reasons to have a Warlord stand on the other side of an enemy and get the Rogue to do the wailing, especially if you have +3 or 4 coming from Int.

In comparison a Human Slayer can only manage (at level 2):
Weapon Proficiency: Fullblade
Weapon Expertise: Heavy Blades
Weapon Focus: Heavy Blades

MBA: +10 vs AC 1d12+8
With Battle Wrath Stance: +10 vs AC 1d12+10 (11-22 dmg)

So the rogue with CA will out damage the Slayer by around 4 points on average each round, but without CA the Rogue falls 5 points behind the Slayer. So if we go for a Commanding Warlord the Rogue is better, but a Directing Warlord likely prefers to have a Slayer around.

And that's all on the Thief's turn- then he can do it all again on the warlord's turn (or a monster's turn with an immediate reaction power).

 

[nnms]

If you're going to let the rogue have CA every turn, perhaps it'd also be fair to compare the Slayer with the +4 damage stance when he's one on one with an enemy and the -2 hit, +4 damage one when he has CA.

Also, fullblades are nice and all, but a executioners axe or a mordenkrad is higher damage.

Or focus him on charging and take power attack to work with the +2 to charge attacks from the one stance.

But even then, I'm still thinking the thief will outpace the slayer on average. And it's so much easier to build a thief that works while the slayer needs optimizing to be as good.

 

[Nork]

After having had the books for a few days... I'd say each one is by far the best money I've spent on a book in a long while.

I'll spoil a power to hopefully tempt some fence sitters into buying the book.

Phantom Foes
Wizard Attack 7 Encounter
Standard Action
Area Burst 2 within 10 squares
Each creature in the burst
No attack roll required
Each target is slowed until the end of your next turn. Also until the end of your next turn, the first time the target makes an attack it must make a saving throw. If the saving throw fails, as a free action you can change the target of the attack. If the attack hits one of the target's allies, it does 5 extra damage.

 

[Plane Sailing]

It is once a turn and it's awesome!

what is the difference between once a turn and once a round?

 

[Vael]

what is the difference between once a turn and once a round?

Before, when sneak attack was once per round, if the Rogue got another attack, from the Warlord or from an Opportunity Attack, he couldn't apply sneak attack damage again. Now he can.

 

[Stalker0]

Before, when sneak attack was once per round, if the Rogue got another attack, from the Warlord or from an Opportunity Attack, he couldn't apply sneak attack damage again. Now he can.

Also, I believe SA can now be applied to all OAs a rogue might make, even if he got his SA in on his round.

 

[JoJa]

When making comparisons between the Slayer and the Thief, also remember that the Slayer can start with much better armor (while still having high DEX, on average, because of the bonus damage with DEX) and also starts with more hitpoints and healing surges. Sure those things don't help it hit harder, but might make the Slayer more attractive to different people.

Basically, I think they're both good, but for different reasons.

 

[Nahat Anoj]

what is the difference between once a turn and once a round?

Basically, each time a monster or PC acts is a turn. A round is essentially composed of the turns of several creatures.

Before, rogues could apply Sneak Attack only once per round. Now, in a combat with 10 creatures (say, 5 PCs and 5 monsters), the rogue can now potentially get 10 opportunities to apply Sneak Attack (once for his turn, the other 9 for the other creatures' turns). In practice, given that monsters aren't always in the rogue's range, that probably wouldn't happen. But, with opportunity attacks and abilities that grant basic attacks, Sneak Attack damage will probably be more frequently applied.

I personally prefer this new method, if only because it's simpler to use. I no longer will have to wonder if the rogue has used Sneak Attack earlier in the round. I think it will also make more "sense" to people from a logical standpoint.

When making comparisons between the Slayer and the Thief, also remember that the Slayer can start with much better armor (while still having high DEX, on average, because of the bonus damage with DEX) and also starts with more hitpoints and healing surges. Sure those things don't help it hit harder, but might make the Slayer more attractive to different people.

Yeah, for many people scads of damage isn't everything. And if the main defender should go down or be otherwise incapacitated, the slayer has better chances holding the line than a thief would IMO.