Essentials Cleric

[keterys]

I disagree. The fiddly bits are the intricate interactions between Immediate Interrupt and its difference from Opportunity Attack and Immediate Reaction, etc etc etc. None of that is going away. How many times have I had to try to explain to someone that their Opportunity Action doesn't benefit from their bonus to Opportunity Attack rolls? How many 12 yr olds are going to successfully track marks, conditions, and effects by themselves in actual play?

Sure seems to me that a simplified fighter could dispel that confusion pretty easily.

Hell, I'd avoid immediate interrupts like the plague on simplified classes and monsters. Having to notice something that can potentially rewind time? Yeah, let's avoid that.

Now, I don't disagree that SOME of that can be mitigated by ditching most powers that apply effects that need tracking, getting rid of niggling subtleties of mechanics of classes like CC and CS on fighters, etc. That will HELP, but the fundamental complexity is in the application of the (already stated not to be changing) core of the rules.

It's really not hard to make the game a couple orders of magnitude less complex by just doing what I said. I'm not sure they'll actually do it, but if they make the powers _far_ more likely to have instantaneous effects (forced movement, damage, prone) than conditions you need to track, avoid immediates, and have standardized durations as much as possible, they'll be miles ahead of core 4e. I do think you'd need to change a few actual rules to really finish it off (like Readied actions), but eh, can't be perfect.

For example: The shaman would be a horrible Essentials class. In order for it to work, I think the spirit would have to become a summon instead of a conjuration, at a minimum, and even then... maybe just have it be an extension of the shaman itself, or ditch the spirit entirely. So... yeah, just don't be an Essentials class.

BECMI was pretty damn complicated if you considered it purely from the perspective of a high level wizard. So... don't do that

 

[KidSnide]

Yes, but the key is that if a group of young people are going to play amongst themselves, that is assuming they don't have an older player to DM, then they will have to COMPREHEND all of these subtleties of the rules.

I think have to disagree with you there. I've been GMing since I was about 10, and if there are two crucial things I learned about the experience:

1) Almost any failure of rules comprehension will be forgiven by a sufficiently undiscerning audience.

2) 10-year-old boys are an extremely undiscerning audience.

So, while I agree that a bunch of kids are going to be playing D&D "wrong", I'm also sure "wrong play" has been a staple part of the hobby for many years. If you can roll to hit, roll damage and subtract hit points, you can play a rudimentary version of D&D. Understanding all the rules subtleties is nice, but hardly a requirement to enjoy the game.

-KS

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

I think have to disagree with you there. I've been GMing since I was about 10, and if there are two crucial things I learned about the experience:

1) Almost any failure of rules comprehension will be forgiven by a sufficiently undiscerning audience.

2) 10-year-old boys are an extremely undiscerning audience.

So, while I agree that a bunch of kids are going to be playing D&D "wrong", I'm also sure "wrong play" has been a staple part of the hobby for many years. If you can roll to hit, roll damage and subtract hit points, you can play a rudimentary version of D&D. Understanding all the rules subtleties is nice, but hardly a requirement to enjoy the game.

-KS

Well, I don't really disagree with that in general. 4e is just significantly more complex from a rules complexity standpoint than Basic or even AD&D were. If you did things a bit cockeyed in those games it didn't matter much, there really wasn't much to mess up. Get your Immediate actions wrong and 4e will get a bit strange. Unlike Keterys I don't believe you can excise that stuff from the game. Of course the real question will be is it enjoyable. Still, I think it represents a good deal bigger barrier than it ever did in Basic or Old D&D. Honestly the only issues we had back in the day (at age 12) with that was the incredible obtuseness of the rules themselves. 4e is vastly better written and presumably will be even better on the 2nd go around. I just wonder. I think a clearly written game of the complexity of Basic would work better for that audience. I can't say I would want WotC to go that route personally, but I do wonder if 4e will prove popular with younger players.

I guess we'll see! I certainly hope it is.

 

[Echohawk]

Yes, but the key is that if a group of young people are going to play amongst themselves, that is assuming they don't have an older player to DM, then they will have to COMPREHEND all of these subtleties of the rules.

I don't think the success of the Essentials is at-all dependent on the ability of young people to comprehend all of the subtleties of the rules. As long as someone who buys into the Essentials line has plenty of fun playing the game wrong, those products will still be successful.

And, in any case, hands up anyone in here who didn't play the game at least a little bit wrong when they started out? Anyone? Anyone at all? Didn't think so. And we all turned out okay, didn't we?

 

[Mouseferatu]

And we all turned out okay, didn't we?

Well, all of us except You Know Who. He's just incompetent.

 

[Shazbot79]

- If the Essentials Line sells well enough we'll see a third book with Warlord, Bard etc.

My personal speculation is that the "Power" source books will cease and will be replaced by player's option books, such as the forthcoming Shadow book.

So we will see a "Players: Option: Heroes of the Arcane" or something along those lines that will have Essentials style builds for Bards, Wizards, Warlocks, Swordmages, Sorcerers and possibly Artficers, along with books specific to other power sources.

 

[Mithreinmaethor]

My personal speculation is that the "Power" source books will cease and will be replaced by player's option books, such as the forthcoming Shadow book.

So we will see a "Players: Option: Heroes of the Arcane" or something along those lines that will have Essentials style builds for Bards, Wizards, Warlocks, Swordmages, Sorcerers and possibly Artficers, along with books specific to other power sources.

I think you are correct but have it backwards. The Heroes of books will replace the printing of the PHBS since they are released in march. The Powers books could easily still be printed and sold in October as they are now as a supplement to the Heroes books

 

[Jack99]

I have it on good authority you don't need to pay to do that.

I'm sort of an expert in the field.

Haha. Totally forgot about that. Then we just need Zaran to accept the challenge. I already have the perfect pic in mind.

Well, all of us except You Know Who. He's just incompetent.

There you go again, being mean to He Who Shall Not Be Named. Watch out, or you will be slapped with some moderation!!!

 

[Scribble]

casualoblivion... what I'm asking is why? You don't have to use previous books with the first 3 hardbacks... weren't they designed to stand by themselves? Didn't they even have a starter set so many people on this very site defended as great for new players ( I remember that because I bought it early and started a thread on here about why I didn't think it was that great for new players... though many posters rushed to it's defense)? I guess what I'm asking is how does this "Essentials" line differ as far as new players are concerned?

I think what they're trying to do this time is emulate what I think helped make the old boxed sets so successful. They kind of "led you along" as your experience with the game grew.

Instead of try it, then dive in head first, they seem to be trying to give people paths to travel down, so the buy in doesn't seem as huge, and the confusion over what exactly they need to play the game isn't as large.

 

[jbear]

A thought just occured to me. In the same way that clerics get to choose domains, I wonder if wizards will get to choose schools that have a similar mechanical effect: features and pre-selected at-will and encounter powers, and possibly a level 1 utility power as well. That would be one way to bring the eight schools of magic back into 4E.

And is this where the 'Necromancer' for Wizards and 'Hex Blade' for Warlocks who use the shadow power source that has been mentioned in a blurb from an upcoming release fit into the picture???