Essentials multiclassing playtest?

[Mummolus]

I was just double checking, and the wording of pact initiate seems that you don't actually get a pact that way (you get the pact's at-will, and qualify specifically for paragon path's requiring that pact, but it doesn't actually say you gain the pact).

I was actually thinking the same thing, as it would have made it possible to do weird builds for various E-classes (a half-elf knight, for example, that uses a pact blade and thus charisma for all his MBAs; not to mention a thief that can pick up a +3/d10 light blade) but I don't think you actually get the pact unless you are a 'true' warlock (or at least hybrid). [the Binding Initiate seems to function the same way, giving you things associated with the pact, but not giving you the pact itself].

Seems they may have caught it (or just avoided it accidentally), as there doesn't really seem to be an easy way to mix the pact blade + associated MBA with the Eclasses that riff on MBAs themselves. The closest would be Executioner/Warlock hybrid, which would have some fun, but the only tricks Executioner's do with MBAs is the bits of striker damage, compared to stuff like power strike, backstab, the various stances, etc that the other Eclasses have. They still may want to address the Executioner issue.

I was probably reading too much into the part that says "Choose a pact" rather than the explanation thereof. It was pretty late and I was trying desperately to find something awesome in an otherwise wholly disappointing article.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yeah, I seem to remember that whole debate about "having a pact" vs "having the at-will" but I don't really recall if anything official was ever said about that. The wording for Pact Initiate still seems to indicate you don't really have the pact. OTOH some odd things can arise out of that.

 

[Neverfate]

The assassin options are terrible. They had a chance to improve both the executioner and the oassassin here, and they failed badly. The only really solid thing about them is that they are, in fact, new feats, which means there's still support for feats (I'd been wondering, given that the races/classes in HoS got basically none).

I don't think you're viewing the article in the correct light. The Executioner can now be Multiclassed, Hybridized and cross-classed with the Ossassin. That too me seems like it covered all fronts in a "Hybrid/Mulitclass" article.

The fact that these classes kind of suck is an entirely different matter. Hopefully this will be addressed at some later point. Though seeing as they are classes that have been out for a while (the Executioner was fail-tastically "play tested" back in October, released in December) and have gotten no support even from a major print release, I would not get my hopes up. I am making sure to specifically NOT mention that the Assassin and Executioner are awful classes in my e-mail that I am preparing.

Also, one particularly nasty combo is a Hybrid Executioner/Blackguard built solely on Charisma and building on Virtuous Strike since now, as a Hybrid Blackguard you have a choice of powers. Once you're given a choice of powers, you can take any from your class. With a Bastard sword that 1d10+1d8+Cha, with Cha again and +2 (Fury Vice) if you include combat advantage. Suddenly I feel more effective than I did with the full class of either . . .

Also, now Hybrid Warlock's are monsters if they can gain a Pact Weapon (they were already a decent hybrid option before). The support for Warlock seems to be largely invalidating the Hexblade these days (Curse Damage off-turn) and now the loss of their key feature? Or the staggering amount of At-Wills a (human) warlock can now end up with?

Similarly the Ranger being able to pick up more options? Anyone who complained they aren't supporting older 4E builds is now mistaken between this and the Warlock (though Rangers may see a nerf in their CC article. It's a 50/50 chance).

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Similarly the Ranger being able to pick up more options? Anyone who complained they aren't supporting older 4E builds is now mistaken between this and the Warlock (though Rangers may see a nerf in their CC article. It's a 50/50 chance).

Most of the complaints I've seen about classes lacking support are laments about the post-PHB1 classes. Just sayin'.

 

[Aegeri]

Similarly the Ranger being able to pick up more options? Anyone who complained they aren't supporting older 4E builds is now mistaken between this and the Warlock (though Rangers may see a nerf in their CC article. It's a 50/50 chance).

PHB martial classes have never been the ones in trouble support wise.

 

[Zaphling]

I don't think you're viewing the article in the correct light. The Executioner can now be Multiclassed, Hybridized and cross-classed with the Ossassin. That too me seems like it covered all fronts in a "Hybrid/Mulitclass" article.

The fact that these classes kind of suck is an entirely different matter. Hopefully this will be addressed at some later point. Though seeing as they are classes that have been out for a while (the Executioner was fail-tastically "play tested" back in October, released in December) and have gotten no support even from a major print release, I would not get my hopes up. I am making sure to specifically NOT mention that the Assassin and Executioner are awful classes in my e-mail that I am preparing.

Also, one particularly nasty combo is a Hybrid Executioner/Blackguard built solely on Charisma and building on Virtuous Strike since now, as a Hybrid Blackguard you have a choice of powers. Once you're given a choice of powers, you can take any from your class. With a Bastard sword that 1d10+1d8+Cha, with Cha again and +2 (Fury Vice) if you include combat advantage. Suddenly I feel more effective than I did with the full class of either . . .

Also, now Hybrid Warlock's are monsters if they can gain a Pact Weapon (they were already a decent hybrid option before). The support for Warlock seems to be largely invalidating the Hexblade these days (Curse Damage off-turn) and now the loss of their key feature? Or the staggering amount of At-Wills a (human) warlock can now end up with?

Similarly the Ranger being able to pick up more options? Anyone who complained they aren't supporting older 4E builds is now mistaken between this and the Warlock (though Rangers may see a nerf in their CC article. It's a 50/50 chance).

I beg to disagree, you can never choose at-wills for your Blackguard since you're still choosing your vices like normal. And i think you cannot hybridize your own class, hence Executioner/Oassassin.

 

[Neverfate]

I beg to disagree, you can never choose at-wills for your Blackguard since you're still choosing your vices like normal. And i think you cannot hybridize your own class, hence Executioner/Oassassin.

Spirit of Vice: You choose a vice and gain the
benefit of the Spirit of Vice class feature.

The Spirit of Vice class feature does not give you at-wills. The Spirit of Vice feature is a damage mechanic. Normally, as a regular blackguard you would pick a Spirit of Vice class feature and get associated at-wills via the Vice At-Will class feature, which is listed on a normal blackguard as and which is not listed on the hybrids. As it stands now, you can select any at-will from your class (paladin) and from your other class.

You can disagree if you want, but the rules are pretty clear. Also, it's a playtest, so if this irks you, you can email WotC. I plan to.

Honestly it just needs to say "Vice At-Will (hybrid)- You gain one Vice At-will as your chose At-Will".

Also, I haven't looked closely at the Executioner but I believe they get an Assassin at-will AND 2 guild at-wills (which isn't so bad since the guild atwills are situational).

Edit: In response to @Aegeri and [MENTION=19675]Dannyalcatraz[/MENTION]. I think I phrased my initial comment on older build support poorly. Though you guys alluded more to what I had meant.

I think a lot of people peg Essentials as killing old school support, but in reality, if Essentials were just regular splat books it would still be support for PHB1. This is no longer Old vs Essentials, but PHB1 vs Everything Else. WotC still wouldn't be supporting classes, but people wouldn't be erroneously complaining that it's Essentials fault. I'm not defending Essentials, just saying WotC not caring about PHB2 and 3 is what is at fault (I mean, where was the cross druid/sentinel feats?)

 

[Neonchameleon]

Spirit of Vice: You choose a vice and gain the
benefit of the Spirit of Vice class feature.

The Spirit of Vice class feature does not give you at-wills. The Spirit of Vice feature is a damage mechanic. Normally, as a regular blackguard you would pick a Spirit of Vice class feature and get associated at-wills via the Vice At-Will class feature, which is listed on a normal blackguard as and which is not listed on the hybrids. As it stands now, you can select any at-will from your class (paladin) and from your other class.

This has given me my next hybrid idea; a Star Pact Binder|Blackguard multi-thread. The trick here is using a Hybrid Blackguard allows Charismadin powers which are then boosted by Dark Menace; you're getting to count your Charisma twice (and a further +2 to damage from the Vice of Fury whenever you have Combat Advantage). You gain CA from going invisible from your Star Pact. And because you have Paladin powers, you can break out the Divine Sanctions so you are a defender (with Paladin Armour Proficiency) doing striker damage whenever you have CA, and who commonly marks in Close Burst 3 then vanishes (or vanishes then marks - who cares?)

 

[Kobold Avenger]

I'm just thinking of the Bard which can pick up an unlimited amount of multiclass feats. It's just 2 feats to get a pact-blade, and it certainly seems within reason that they can have both Pact Initiate and Binder Initiate, or 2 feats of any superclass that has a separate multiclass feat it's different subclasses.

 

[Akaiku]

I'm just thinking of the Bard which can pick up an unlimited amount of multiclass feats.

And, as a cha user and a healer, they can eaisly 'also vampire' plus 'also blackguard' or some divine class to get 'also ignores daylight/radiant vulrn'.

More hilarity ensues if you have encounters from more than one power source to use the 'you can get a healing surge with your encounter' feats for each power source.