Essentials Questions and Comments

[Uller]

I started a thread a month or two ago about introducing my son to D&D with Essentials. I'm a long time gamer stretching back to OD&D (still have the "blue" basic book, first printings of the 1e DMG, PHB, MM and Deities and Demigods...the one with Elric et al...and core books from every other edition)...

I decided to start 4E with the essentials since they seemed aimed at introducing new gamers to the hobby rather than the core books. So far we have played through the Twisting Halls adventure in the starter kit...

I am very pleased with 4E so far. The Essentials line seems a good way for potential casual gamers to get hooked. I feel I can run a campaign on free/downloadable content fairly indefinitely at our rate of playing a 2-3 hours per week with minimal work (previously I've always run home-grown campaigns and only used published adventures for inspiration...but at this point in life I have no time for writing my own stuff).

However...a couple things I've noticed and would appreciate any comments/guidance:

1) Character Builder - I really like the "beta" version of the character builder I found...it has some things I don't like (such as it doesn't give details on sneak attack beyond doing "extra damage" without mentioning how much...) but it seems indispensable in that it prints out all your powers for you complete with attack bonuses, damage, etc...we tried making a character out of Essentials books and found it very cumbersome due to the sheer number of powers that had to be recorded in someway. When we make a character with the character builder we found it very helpful to not cut out the power cards...just leave them all on one sheet. That way they are all visible at a glance to the player. I would love to have the full version of the character builder but right now I have no plan to subscribe to DDI indefinitely just to be able to use it...(I realize there are ways around that but don't want to go there either)

2) Essentials Characters - Since we have the Essentials books and access to the character builder we are noticing some differences between PHB and Essentials characters. The Ranger and the Cleric jumped out at me first. Character builder has no mention of "domains" for clerics and has Turn Undead available as an encounter power. The Essentials Cleric has no Turn Undead and pushes clerics into Storm or Sun domains....Rangers in Character builder seem much more beefy...They have Hunter's Quarry allowing them to fulfil the striker role much better and there is mention of a companion beast (although without the PHB I have no idea what this is). My son is playing an Essentials Ranger (Hunter)...his most used power is clever shot which he uses to knock foes prone so the rogue can deal sneak attack/backstab damage. This has become boring and almost comical...at the end of the twisting halls adventure (SPOILER!) he kept knocking down the hulking zombie every round...silly....All and all, essentials characters (without Character Builder support) seem cumbersome and somewhat ineffective.

Other 4E comments: I'm very found of much of 4E. It love how the wizard class works for the most part except there doesn't seem to be a mechanism for adding new spells to your spell book except via leveling (maybe there is in the core books). Healing surges, death and dying and that they took out much of the intsa kill/save or die type effects (a trend started in 3e). There are some things along those lines I've found disappointing...such as there doesn't seem to be rules for becoming infected by lycanthropy...but there seems to have been room left for DMs to add that if they want a darker/grimmer feel to the game. I like that every character has access to powers that can change the course of a battle, every character always has something important to do and often has to make decisions that are meaningful in combat...My son has learned quickly that he can't just sit there and attack over and over with a basic attack. He has to move in thoughtful ways and decide what power to use next.

Some things I don't like: As a DM I find some things in published adventures troubling...I guess I am missing something within the rules or perhaps monsters don't necessarily follow the rules...(SPOILER!) For instance at the end of the Twisting Halls adventure, the party had destroyed the skeletons, managed to isolate Malereth from the zombie and were finally getting to attack Malereth...The fighter had saved his big daily power for just this moment...then missed on the swing because his target (4th level mage with no armor and no magical protections mentioned anywhere in his stats) had an AC of 18. What? How? He has a dex of 16 (+3) and +2 from his level...shouldn't that make it 15? My son had rolled a 17...since I couldn't find a justification for the 18 AC beyond maybe that the author just wanted to make the enemy mage tougher I ruled a hit. The wizard got off one more blast from his staff taking two PCs down to 0hp before being finished off...I've noticed a lot of that within the monster vault and other adventures...monsters having various stats and abilities that seem beyond their level. Not a huge thing...I'm an experienced DM and can make adjustments on the fly to keep things interesting but minorly annoying.

I do regret not just buying the core books...as an experienced gamer, I find the essentials just give a taste of what you can do but don't go deep enough...for example, the monster vault has young and elder dragons, no metalic dragons...giants are likewise sparse...the DM book doesn't have tables of magic items...during our game I modfied an encounter and wanted to award treasure...I followed the advice to roll the treasure and came up with (among other things) a 3rd level magic item but no way to determine what that was. With the character books it feels like I don't have access to the full range of powers (especially wizard spells). However, my son is currently having a blast so I think the Essentials hit their mark of making the game accessible to new players without overloading them with options.

I've started a lunch time group at work too...maybe once the Virtual Gaming table is up to speed I'll subscribe to DDI, but for now I think I have enough books and enough adventures to run a game for a long time (I still have H1, Reavers of Harkenwood, Cairn of the Winter King along with a few other downloadable adventures to run...probably enough for several months of gaming)

Thoughts? Advice?

Thanks

 

[BobTheNob]

Hmmmm

Im a long time DM of 4e (since it first came out), and have to say that I wish essentials was what 4e originaly was! As far as getting the core books...meh, if you want LOTS or classes and LOTS of powers and LOTS of feats (yada yada) you can ever expand the library. Our problem is the library is just too big, and creating and leveling characters is a pain (especially now we are at epic level...groan). I actually wish the list was far smaller, not bigger.

Come on WOTC, get the campaign editor into the character builder please, we deperately need it!

As for monsters. MM1 & MM2 actually have "pre-errata" math. At one point WOTC figured out that moster math was wrong (they didnt do enough damage, defences were wrong e.t.c) and started with new math after that point. The Vault (which you have) is actually just a collection of monsters from other sources (Mainly mm1) that have been updated with these changes.

The only publications with correct math are MM3, Dark Sun Monstrous compendium and the vault.

 

[ravenheart]

Monsters are not made using the same rules as PCs. This is quite a big change, especially compared to 3.x. But it follows the general design of 4e - not trying to emulate the real world, but rather that of a movie or other works of fiction. Basically, it admits to being nothing more than it is - a game.

Ex. Average monster AC should be level + 14, so 18 is quite appropriate for a 4th level creature. The other defenses should be around 12 + level of the monster. Likewise, monster attacks should generally be level + 5 vs. AC and level + 3 vs. Fort/Ref/Will.

Ability scores are not used to determine monster defenses, but a high Dexterity or Intelligence does logically seem to favor the AC of a lightly armored NPC, so maybe it could be a step above average. This would require the lowering of another defense on the other hand, for balance reasons.

How all this is justified in the game world is up to you as a DM. It's not spelled out in the stats because it doesn't need to be - all depends on your description: a mage might be described as having a magical barrier surrounding itself while a skirmisher could be twitching and tumbling constantly to convey the image of a being that can easily dodge all but the most accurate of attacks.

And as for wizard spells, the same balance that prohibits any class from knowing or using more powers than what is given (without sacrifice) can also be found here. Wizards do get access to feats (such as Expanded Spellbook) which gives them additional known daily spells, but are considered situational at best.

 

[Jhaelen]

The fighter had saved his big daily power for just this moment...then missed on the swing because his target (4th level mage with no armor and no magical protections mentioned anywhere in his stats) had an AC of 18.

As has been mentioned, monster math works completely different than pc math.
Apart from that, missing with a daily isn't a big deal for a fighter, since it's either reliable or also having an effect on a miss.

If it's really important that the fighter hits with his big daily in the first attempt he should try to get the support of the party's leaders and/or have his allies use aid another. In my group this happens quite often to help the party's only striker (a barbarian) dish out tons of damage more reliably.

 

[OnlineDM]

It sounds like you had some confusion about the downloadable Character Builder and Essentials characters. In case it wasn't clear, Essentials books aren't in the downloadable Character Builder at all (they're in the online version, though).

The Ranger in the downloadable Character Builder (the original PHB1 Ranger) is a Striker, while the Hunter build of the Ranger from Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms is a controller (as your son has discovered with the knock-down Clever Shot). They play very differently, but with similar flavor elements.

The rules for beast companions are actually from Martial Power, not the original PHB.

Also, for some elements you have to go digging. When you mention that Sneak Attack deals "extra damage" without the Builder telling you how much, I'm guessing you're looking at the character sheet printout where it summarizes your class features. If you want the full details, you can go into the Builder and click on the class name in the Select Class section - the right pane should give you the full description of the Rogue and all of its class features, including the details on Sneak Attack (it's 2d6 extra damage, by the way). Note that the rules on Sneak Attack were updated with Essentials to allow the Rogue to use it once per turn rather than just once per round - a nice bonus.

 

[Neonchameleon]

The Essentials Cleric has no Turn Undead and pushes clerics into Storm or Sun domains....

Look under "Warpriest" for the Essentials Cleric. But yes, they are slightly different.

Rangers in Character builder seem much more beefy...They have Hunter's Quarry allowing them to fulfil the striker role much better and there is mention of a companion beast [snip] My son is playing an Essentials Ranger (Hunter)...

Beast Companions are an option in Martial Power. Something a little like the Druid's pet. But the more important point is that the Hunter is in no way intended to be a striker. He's a controller. Knocking people prone and generally making their lives a misery is what he does. Not piles of damage. On the other hand, the Scout is a striker ranger in Essentials. His additional damage mechanic is to get to attack with his offhand weapon for free if he hits with his primary one. The hunter is meant to be knocking people prone and sliding them so they regularly lose out on their attacks. Or other little tricks to deny them (if the rogue were to attack and then step back, the zombie would hopefully be out of reach - and too close to charge). Or open with a slowing shot and it'll take the brute two turns to arrive to the fight.

Other 4E comments: I'm very found of much of 4E. It love how the wizard class works for the most part except there doesn't seem to be a mechanism for adding new spells to your spell book except via leveling (maybe there is in the core books).

Magic in the PHB was split into two. Battle magic and Rituals. Battle magic is the stuff you really know and can whip up in a handful of seconds; this takes muscle memory. PHB wizards (and clerics, bards, invokers, and a few others) are ritual casters (most rituals taking a minute or more to cast). And these rituals are spells that take time and money to cast - and can be added to your spell book.

such as there doesn't seem to be rules for becoming infected by lycanthropy...

Disease rules. With the specific lycanthropy being normally printed under the monster in the Monster Manual. (IIRC they all end up turning the PC into an NPC.)

My son has learned quickly that he can't just sit there and attack over and over with a basic attack. He has to move in thoughtful ways and decide what power to use next.

Unless playing a Slayer... Even then, movement is useful.

 

[Dausuul]

Monsters are not made using the same rules as PCs. This is quite a big change, especially compared to 3.x.

Actually, it's only a change when compared to 3.X. All other editions had separate rules for monsters and PCs.

 

[jimmifett]

Character builder download is for pre-essenentials. The new online version supports essentials.

It may just be 4e experience for me, but I found that I built an essential hunter in about 15 minutes (having already previously read the book cover to cover days before).

Monsters are built different than players. Thiers NADs start at 12 + level, with AC being between 12 + level to 16 + level depending on the role of the monster. Assuming evil lvl 4 wizard is a controller, thats 14 + 4 for AC.
Additionally, you can apply player-ish class templates over the base AC and NADs, such as boosting reflex an additional +2 for a roguish or sneaky monster.

Save or Die goes further back than 3e, but yes, glad that is gone. Diseases are in the core DMG i believe, and I think lycanthropy is among them. If not, it gives you a simple enough framework for making your own disease progression track that can end in confirmed, irreversable infection.

Blasts and stuff are common. It's good to spread the party out so you aren't all standing in a burst 1 right after initiative is rolled.

I highly recommend the other MM books. MM3 is very nice, esp with it's design choices. They reduced use of damage resistance in favor of say, a fire elemental being hit with fire still takes damage, but has a trigger go off as a 'payback' attack for hitting him with fire.