Essentials Rogue is up!

[mkill]

Guys, the Thief gets a class ability called Weapon Finesse. If you're wondering, look it up here:

Feats :: d20srd.org

It should have been a class feature / bonus feat for rogues since 3.0 anyway.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I am 100% sure, because otherwise it has to be one of the dumbest classes in all of 4E if it can't use any of its powers. Some things are just unintuitively designed, like the Knight and stances being cut off when dazed - but I don't believe that the Rogue will suffer from a complete inability to do anything at all with a MBA without a feat tax. Like the Knight though, the thief is capable of taking Melee training and making himself any stat he feels like primary (Even Charisma if he feels like it).

A strength primary tumbler based thief could be very good.

Knight stances are at least still active when dazed, rogue tricks are completely cut off. But I regard this as a feature, not a bug. So it is twice as important to protect the rogue if you are the knight.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Guys, the Thief gets a class ability called Weapon Finesse. If you're wondering, look it up here:

Feats :: d20srd.org

It should have been a class feature / bonus feat for rogues since 3.0 anyway.

Not necessarily: I would rather have the option to use strength for rogue powers than dexterity for MBA.

Luckily with 90% probability, we now have the best of bot worlds.

 

[Zaran]

Hey, your money and your game, of course, but I'd think it might be a better idea to wait longer to see what the complete options look like before declaring you flat out won't buy it. What if you like the final version? What if your fellow players do?

That's unlikely to happen. I have one friend who stopped running his game because I wanted to still use my character builder when the October release comes out. He hates the fact that 4e is changing mechanics that the game is based on.

While I disagree with him about WotC trying to improve the wizard class, I do agree with him that these new essential classes are just a ploy to get Pathfinder type players back into DnD and I think it will fail.

We have a very casual player in our group now. She's the wife of one of the other players. She plays because it's something her friends enjoy. She still figured out the game enough to pick an at-will power and use her dailies when the drek hits the fan. They do not need to make a build that is just based around basic attacks. You can do that already with any build.

 

[Xeterog]

stopped running in July, when essentials don't come out till october, and WOTC has stated over and over and over and over again that Essentials will work with the current rules, not replace them. Sounds like over reaction to me.

 

[Klaus]

For those who don't like the term "Backstab" for that power (because Backstab and Sneak Attack have always been the same thing), read it as "Exploit Weakness" or "Gap in the Armor". The power, if worded as a common Encounter power, would look like this:

Backstab ----------- Thief Attack 1
Standard • Melee weapon
Target: One creature granting combat advantage to you
Attack: Dex vs. Reflex
Hit: 2 [W] + Dexterity modifier damage

 

[shmoo2]

We're working through the MBA issue now and will likely issue updates to deal with the worst issues. It was on our radar from early on in the design, but you can bet we're looking at the charop boards to make sure we didn't miss anything. We didn't want to update anything too soon, since it doesn't become an issue until essentials is out.

Of course, the primary offenders are items and powers with affects that boost MBA's permanently or at-will. These were designed with the idea that MBA are rarely used or weak options for the character. That isn't the case for Essentials PCs.

Game elements of concern in the Compendium include:
* Bracers of Mighty Striking- permanent +2 damage to MBA's
* Dantrag's Bracer's- MBA's target 2 enemies (!) permanently
* Golden Crown of Battle Command- permanent +2 to hit and damage on MBA's granted by a Warlord
* Avalanche Hammer- permanent MBA used on a charge does extra [W] damage
* Master's Blade- while in stance (permanent for a Knight) +1 to hit with MBA
* Weapon of Myrdoon's Shard- At-will Reach+1 on MBA's

* Dread Reaper PP
@ level 16 MBA's with 2-Handed Weapon get Cleave-like bonus (STR damage to an adjacent enemy)

* Polearm Master PP
@ level 16 permanent extension of reach to +2 while using a polearm to punish those who violate your mark

Feats:
* Righteous Fury- At-will -2 to attack adds "Rattling" to MBA
* Hammer Shock- At will add "Rattling" to MBA when using a hammer
* Impaling Spear- At-will MBA's target Reflex when using spear
* Lashing Flail- At-will MBA's slide 1 when using flail
* Piercing Pick- At-will MBA's target Fortitude when using Pick
* Wicked Blade- At-will MBA's gain "High Crit" when using Heavy Blade

Some of these may be OK for Essentials characters, but others, especially the bracers and the MP2 paragon weapon feats are probably now too good. Making them useable 1/ encounter would balance them for Essentials PCs and wouldn't affect other PCs that much since they don't make MBAs that often.

 

[Stalker0]

Overall it seems pretty solid.

I agree with many that feinting attack just doesn't look that good compared with tumbling attack...but this is what is great about several abilities a player can choose from...it allows situational powers to shine.


If I were picking encounter powers from a list, and my choices were tumbling attack or feinting attack, there would be absolutely no question which one I choose (ps, its tumbling attack for you terrible people who would dare question!). However, because I get both...as long as feinting attack comes up once in a while its still useful to me.

This class seems pretty solid. Since rogues have often been more "skill based" classes anyway, I think it has some of the best fit with a simplified set of mechanics and fewer expendable powers.

The only real problem I do see overall with the essential classes is the idea that I can base all of my attacks and damage on any stat I want with a single feat. 4e has moved somewhat away from the traditional realms of each stat, allowing classes to make sword swings based on int or cha, etc but I wouldn't want them to go all the way and make stats completely interchangeable.

 

[MrMyth]

Of course, the primary offenders are items and powers with affects that boost MBA's permanently or at-will. These were designed with the idea that MBA are rarely used or weak options for the character. That isn't the case for Essentials PCs.

I was very worried about this until I realized you could already make builds that abuse these things. Charging barbarians, for example, or folks with Eldritch Strike (or similar 'boosted melee basics') who invest in primarily immediate, minor and free action Encounter and Daily powers.

All very powerful builds, but none gamebreaking. So even if WotC does nothing about these existing options (and it sounds like they will), I don't think the game will come crashing down because of it.

 

[Stalker0]

Some of these may be OK for Essentials characters, but others, especially the bracers and the MP2 paragon weapon feats are probably now too good. Making them useable 1/ encounter would balance them for Essentials PCs and wouldn't affect other PCs that much since they don't make MBAs that often.

Its an interesting question. Ultimately I think it will depend on how essential classes scale.

One thing I have not enjoyed about 4e is that damage is bundled mainly into your higher level dailies and encounter powers. This both makes hitting early in combat very important, and means that damage tends to steadily decrease with combat length....which tends to prolong combats.

The essential classes may be designed to do more regular, continuous damage without as many of the big powers. In that respect, the above magic items may be expected power boosts to the classes for higher tier.

Than again, if certain magic items become must have items....that somewhat defeats teh purpose of having a lot of magic items in teh first place.